GMDX: Deus Ex Mod.

[664d66295aedavoodoo47]

just remembered that there is another situation where the game can take a potentially modified weapon off the player - at the beginning of the game, where you can choose to arm Gunther. no idea how to fix this one though.

[664d66295b109Join2]

OK, so I went on a hunt. There is one possible way I can "fix" these weapon offering events in a semi-appropriate manner without access to the conversation packages:

Code: [Select]

// ----------------------------------------------------------------------
// SetupEventCheckObject()
//
// Checks to see if the player has the given object.  If so, then we'll
// just fall through and continue running code.  Otherwise we'll jump
// to the supplied label.
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------

function EEventAction SetupEventCheckObject( ConEventCheckObject event, out String nextLabel )
{
local EEventAction nextAction;
local Name keyName;
local bool bHasObject;

// Okay this is some HackyHack stuff here.  We want the ability to
// check if the player has a particular nanokey.  Sooooooo.

if ((event.checkObject == None) && (Left(event.objectName, 3) == "NK_"))
{
// Look for key
keyName    = player.rootWindow.StringToName(Right(event.ObjectName, Len(event.ObjectName) - 3));
bHasObject = ((player.KeyRing != None) && (player.KeyRing.HasKey(keyName)));
}
else
{
bHasObject = (player.FindInventoryType(event.checkObject) != None);
}

// Now branch appropriately

if (bHasObject)
{
nextAction = EA_NextEvent;
nextLabel  = "";
}
else
{
nextAction = EA_JumpToLabel;
nextLabel  = event.failLabel;
}

return nextAction;
}

This function is used to check if the player has the requested item to give to the NPC. What I'd do when the code looks through the player's inventory to see if they have the weapon to give, is to also check if the weapon is modded. If the weapon is modded, it is considered as if you don't have the weapon to give/the option doesn't appear, to which the next weapon (such as combat knife or whatever) will be an option to give instead. A dirty patch up, but it is the only acceptable option as far as I am aware, that or just leaving it alone.

SS.org code tags destroys code formatting? The code box needs a slider on the y axis.

[664d66295b4e9voodoo47]

that should work, but only if more instances of the same weapon are allowed in the inventory (player having "his" modded pistol, and also a regular pistol looted from an AI). if not, it will probably do more harm then good.

SS.org code tags destroys code formatting? The code box needs a slider on the y axis.

Kolya could answer that.

[664d66295b641Join2]

I don't agree that it would do more harm than good. Getting your heavily modified weapon stolen and not being able to get it back, that is a greater problem. It is definitely a sub-optimal patch up, but the options are very limited.
I agree that it'd work better in combination with there being multiple instances of the same weapon allowed in the inventory, but I strongly suspect that implementing that would result in some headaches for me just for minimal positive results. Ideally the system should have of course allowed for multiple instances of the same weapon vanilla. I wonder why they decided otherwise...

[664d66295b748Join2]

I dunno, I'll give it a go and see how it turns out.

[664d66295b8a7voodoo47]

simplification of inventory management, most likely (as in 90% of cases, you would just unload the extra gun and drop it anyway. the magic ammo pouch probably exists for the same reason). implementing the fix without allowing multiple instances of the gun in the inventory would result in the player having to drop his modded gun and pick a regular one before talking to Gunther (assuming he wants to arm him), and that's basically what you have to do in vanilla. plus it would probably confuse the players, as they would have a modded gun in their inventory, but they would be unable to give it to Gunther for no apparent reason. not sure whether the safety of not being able to lose a modded gun is worth all the potential problems/weirdness.

[664d66295b9c1Join2]

It would default to the option to arm them with some other unmodified weapon, such as a combat knife or whatever other options each conversation offers. If there is no unmodded weapon, then there will be no option at all. JC is already selective over what weapons to give (no heavy weapons, no grenades and such), this is just more of the same to good results.

Just tested it. Worked nicely. Any votes: Keep or discard?

[664d66295baddvoodoo47]

I'd assume that you have tried the Renton scenario, where you can almost always fall back to the combat knife. with Gunther, only the pistol is an option, so it might be more troublesome - basically, requiring the player to know he needs to have an unmodded pistol in his inventory for the arm Gunther choice to be available.

if it works reliably enough in both scenarios, I'd say keep it.

[664d66295be2cJoin2]

I'd assume that you have tried the Renton scenario, where you can almost always fall back to the combat knife. with Gunther, only the pistol is an option, so it might be more troublesome - basically, requiring the player to know he needs to have an unmodded pistol in his inventory for the arm Gunther choice to be available.

You can arm Gunther with the knife too.
What are the other events? There's Miguel in the MJ12 cell and you can only give him a combat knife and nothing else if memory serves me. I think that's it.

Better load it up and test some more.

[664d66295bfa8Join2]

No wait, it is Miguel that offers you a knife. I got the events mixed up somehow.
So, both the Gunther and Renton events work as intended. I'm leaning very strongly to keeping it. Object now or forever hold your peace, Deus Ex fans.

Edit: I just did further testing of the conversations in general. JC is very selective vanilla. It seems Gunther can only be given the pistol or the combat knife. Renton accepts a couple more: pistol, stealth pistol, sawed-off shotgun & combat knife.

[664d66295c098voodoo47]

ok, good to go then, I suppose.

[664d66295c19bJoin2]

Good to go. I'm not against the idea of giving NPCs your modded weaponry, but the fact that you cannot get it back is what obsoletes that option. Why can you not ask Gunther "hey, where's MY pistol, my prized glock that I had before the game even begun?", and so on?
I made the best choice given the circumstances I believe.

[664d66295c5e1ZylonBane]

All of the perks detailed: http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/news/gmdx-all-perks-revealed

Some of those perks make no realistic sense, or do less than their name implies they should. Like "Spatial Economizer" only allowing you to carry more medkits and biocells instead of increasing all stack limits, "Thorough" only yielding more heavy weapon ammo instead of increasing all ammo found, "Area of Effect" only affecting the GEP instead of all explosives, etc. It feels artificial and gamey... which, granted, it is. But it's not supposed to feel that way.

Fallout, etc, gets away with perks that are just as arbitrary and gamey by using humor and more psychological explanations for perk effects. For example "Spatial Economizer" could be called "Hypochondriac", or "Apple a Day" or something like that, so the name makes it clear it only affects healing items. "Thorough" could instead be "Metalhead" (Agent really keeps an eye out for heavy weapons ammo).

"Athlete's Diet"? What kind of athlete gorges on soda and candy bars? Seems like "Competitive Eater" or "Junk Food Junkie" would make more sense. Or the more scientific-sounding "Enhanced Metabolism" or something like that.

"Steady" should at least be "Steady-Footed". Without that it sounds like another aiming perk.

"Trained Pitcher" is problematic because "Trained" has a specific meaning in DX's skill system. You don't want to be overloading terms. Even something as bland as "Pitching Arm" would be better, though baseball jargon is full of colorful terms for pitchers.

[664d66295cac4Join2]

"gamey"

I'm fully aware of the fact. The perk system disregards realism/sim design to some extent. It is an extension of the skill system which did the same. For example, with the skill system you could wear ballistic armor that degraded over time, and leveling the skill increased that duration. Proximity mines detonated over 2 seconds, and increasing the respective skill increased the timer of these enemy-placed mines. How is that realistic in any way? They didn't even try to explain it away with techno babble.

The skill system was gamey. It was an inconsistency in Deus Ex's simulation design, which is hard to avoid (but still do-able) when you combine RPG systems with realism and good gameplay design conventions (balance for example) simultaneously.
SS2 has similar issues, such as cybermodules being required to even be able to put a weapon in your hand. 

GMDX's system is a design hybrid of Fallout's perks and SS2's OS upgrades, yet improved upon in terms of balance as costs are not uniform; it is impossible to make a great number of perks, have them all cost 1 perk point each whilst having them all be balanced choices.

There's still some criticism to be noted here. The perk rename suggestions are good. If you'd like to help me refine it I'd appreciate that because like I said, it still has sim design in mind, but don't dismiss it as having no place in the game when it is merely more of the same (skill system) in the name of greater gameplay depth and balance (some perks encourage taking the lesser skills to master, and playstyle build depth is multiplied), and is also inspired by the very game you are modding which is Deus Ex's brethren.

Edit:

"Like "Spatial Economizer" only allowing you to carry more medkits and biocells instead of increasing all stack limits", "Thorough" only yielding more heavy weapon ammo instead of increasing all ammo found & "Area of Effect" only affecting the GEP instead of all explosives, etc. It feels artificial and gamey... which, granted, it is. But it's not supposed to feel that way."

Game balance take precedence. Additionally, even some of the SS2 OS upgrades which have some theoretically feasible science behind them have gamey names, like "pack rat".
I thought long and hard about the design of the system. I wanted more gameplay depth. That to me trumps everything else. I wanted implants at first so sim design could be better accommodated, but a lot of gamey (yet empowering and balanced) features would have to be omitted. Perks were most suitable, it was simply a case of more of the same of what the original developers did, and just like with them it was one of few instances of sim design taking a back seat.

"Trained Pitcher" is problematic because "Trained" has a specific meaning in DX's skill system. You don't want to be overloading terms

There's no overload. "Trained Pitcher" requires the respective skill to be leveled to trained level first to purchase it. Still, I'll consider changing it to your suggested name.

"Athlete's Diet"? What kind of athlete gorges on soda and candy bars? Seems like "Competitive Eater" or "Junk Food Junkie" would make more sense. Or the more scientific-sounding "Enhanced Metabolism" or something like that.

It is tied to the Athletics skill (renamed swimming skill which now influences swimming and stamina).

"Steady" should at least be "Steady-Footed". Without that it sounds like another aiming perk.

Good suggestion.

Well, your criticism certainly has some basis (you're far from pulling a Salk on me), but I'd suggest playing it once released, then I'll strongly welcome your criticism. For now, you're definitely missing some context (e.g althete's Diet being tied to Athletics skill), and the counter-sim design of the system is near negligible. You only view the perk system via the skill system, so you're already in gamey territory as you do so. Lastly, the gameplay depth multiplication is too great too ignore.

[664d66295cca1Join2]

As far as I see it, LGS pushed hard for sim design, but when gameplay/a generally entertaining experience and sim design came into conflict sim design was often ignored. there are many examples of this:

Aspects of SS2's RPG systems.
Deus Ex's skill system (to some degree).
The fact that game balance was usually a priority (reality cares not for balance).
The fact that each game has persisting non-simulated background music.
That taking damage didn't render you immediately immobile. Arma as one example = sim design as the ultimate priority. For Immersive Sims this wasn't always the case.

For me that was one of the things that made LGS best. that they knew when to prioritize one or the other. That they could have such strong sim design, yet still accommodating of great gameplay depth. Modern devs attempt to create Immersive™ experiences and typically fail on all fronts. LGS got nearly everything so right, and I see this perk system qualifying in that vein (although as noted some tweaks may be in order).

[664d66295d2beDjant]

"gamey"

I'm fully aware of the fact. The perk system disregards realism/sim design to some extent. It is an extension of the skill system which did the same. For example, with the skill system you could wear ballistic armor that degraded over time, and leveling the skill increased that duration. Proximity mines detonated over 2 seconds, and increasing the respective skill increased the timer of these enemy-placed mines. How is that realistic in any way? They didn't even try to explain it away with techno babble.

There's nothing remotely realistic about Deus Ex's or System Shock 2's RPG systems. The thing with those examples though was that it was implied that you got better at some activities, so you could be more efficient with some things. So with Environmental Training, you could make better use of items that  help against environmental hazards, and sometimes human hazards like bullets. Demolitions makes you handle grenades and the like better, so you don't set them off as easily. These are intuitive effects. Zylonbane is pointing out that some perk names don't fit in with what effects they have intuitively.

[664d66295d63fJoin2]

There's nothing remotely realistic about Deus Ex's or System Shock 2's RPG systems. The thing with those examples though was that it was implied that you got better at some activities, so you could be more efficient with some things. So with Environmental Training, you could make better use of items that  help against environmental hazards, and sometimes human hazards like bullets. Demolitions makes you handle grenades and the like better, so you don't set them off as easily. These are intuitive effects. Zylonbane is pointing out that some perk names don't fit in with what effects they have intuitively.

Except they do fit in intuitively as I pointed out. He was missing context (except "Steady-Footed", which was a plain better suggestion).
Also, your initial statement is very wrong, the most notable being Deus Ex's augmentation system, which is a very simulated/realistic RPG system.

[664d66295d750Djant]

I don't think they do, but you're the maker of your mod, so it's your final decision. And what is so realistic or simulated about Deus Ex's augmentations? They're pretty much magic powers given to help you out and propped with some pseudo science.

[664d66295d834ZylonBane]

JU! seems to be responding to imagined criticisms rather than anything I actually said.

[664d66295dda5Join2]

They're pretty much magic powers given to help you out and propped with some pseudo science.

That instead of incrementing a number on a stat sheet we first find the augmentation, must carry it around in your inventory before you can install it, that once you can install it you do so using medical apparatus. that physicality right there helps support the pseudo simulation.  How about that it improves your capability in mostly feasible ways: it isn't magic, but technology, and hypothetically sound technology (no slow-time augmentations, for example)? That human augmentation and nanotechnology are emerging fields right now? That they are central to the plot rather than superficial and detailed to great lengths, even if using pseudo science?
By all means there's still gamey elements to it, yet statements like this: "There's nothing remotely realistic about Deus Ex's or System Shock 2's RPG systems" are false and all too common.

I don't think they do, but you're the maker of your mod, so it's your final decision.

Well, it was the naming convention and names themselves I feared the most. Try offering some alternatives if you want to help. I acknowledge the following should maybe be changed:

Steady (is now Steady-Footed).
Spatial Economizer.
Area of Effect.
Thorough.

JU! seems to be responding to imagined criticisms rather than anything I actually said.

That does seem to be the case, to some extent: of course I did respond appropriately to at least half of what you said. But yes, I saw the word "gamey" and prematurely jumped to the defense when you were merely criticizing the naming convention. 
I've exerted all my brainpower today. There's an upper limit and coffee does little to help.

[664d66295e217Djant]

That instead of incrementing a number on a stat sheet we first find the augmentation, must carry it around in your inventory before you can install it, that once you can install it you do so using medical apparatus. that physicality right there helps support the pseudo simulation.  How about that it improves your capability in mostly feasible ways: it isn't magic, but technology, and hypothetically sound technology (no slow-time augmentations, for example)?

All that stuff helps to make the augmentation canisters feel more like physical objects than glorified power ups, but it doesn't change the nature of the augmentations themselves. Sound technology? Which technology makes someone run super fast, jump from large distances without breaking any legs, and not cause fatigue? Which technology makes it so that covering yourself with a liquid hides you from security cameras and robots? I know they can be bamboozled with some lighting aberrations, but this is a stretch.

[664d66295e633Join2]

Last post, we'll continue this tomorrow when I am of stable functioning.

Which technology makes someone run super fast, jump from large distances without breaking any legs, and not cause fatigue?

First comes mechanical augmentations (except this isn't augmentation in the body-part replacing sense, but that's irrelevant).
Then the nanomachines.
We already can use machines to make us soar through the sky at >768mph. By 2052 I think we'll manage a little all-in-one leg replacement or enhancement.

Which technology makes it so that covering yourself with a liquid hides you from security cameras and robots? I know they can be bamboozled with some lighting aberrations, but this is a stretch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL_KdmSTSNA

[664d66295e78eDjant]

The first example is basically some exosuit meant to reduce fatigue, I doubt it would make anyone run that fast. The second example is about nanobots being used for surgery and better motors being put into them so that they're more efficient. The third example is more about thermal masking and hiding from infrared vision, and techniques for those have been experimented on for quite a while. None of these examples match what the augmentations do in Deus Ex.

[664d66295e8f9Join2]

Sigh. I'm merely showing you that Deus Ex's augmentations are hypothetically sound. The technology is emerging.
Slow time augmentation = illogical. Magic = pure fantasy. Deus Ex's augmentations = hypothetically sound, and rather simulated in their implementation compared to ALL other games. SS2's modules/rig system comes close behind, but is a little more gamey and less fleshed out. So you saying "there's nothing remotely realistic/simulated about their RPG systems" is what triggers me, because they are in fact the most simulated RPG systems out there to date (barring DX's skill system, which as mentioned is a discrepancy in the name of gameplay depth).