Remake Changes/System Shock Remake Mod (A future plan for one anyway)

[6647bba370abaXkilljoy98]

JDoran
I agree, the constant delays with little to no news aside from screenshots and occasional trailers, neither of which tell us the real state of progress.

Also I never considered it, but it is odd that with System Shock they would make a lot of changes, considering they are all about preserving older pc games.

[6647bba370e21Jules]

Hmm...personally, after years of seeing Night Dive's work on the remakes and their various remasters, and seeing the work of other companies such as Beamdog with the Infinity Engine enhanced editions, I've kind of stopped caring about all of them. It seems to me like the best way these old games can be preserved is by leaving them entirely to their community. Perhaps this means that getting an old game to work is going to be less accessible for a lot of people than by simply buying a remastered version on the Steam Store, but at the same time any game's community seems to be more dedicated towards respecting the integrity of the original games and technically perfectly capable of patching a game to work as well as it possibly could on a modern computer. And of course, when you've got a source port you've pretty much got everything you could ever wish for. My last two playthroughs of SS1 have been on the Shockolate port, and I've never felt like trying out the EE.

Besides, ten years from now Night Dive might not even exist anymore and their remasters will become unsupported and increasingly hard to run like the original games. A source port, or even community made patches will however keep being worked on as long as there's a community around. I'm grateful that, for instance, Night Dive has managed to reacquire the System Shock license which was thought to be out of reach for good, but I really wish these old IPs could be left entirely to their communities.

As for this remake...I think I already read somewhere around here that people on this forum are clearly not the kind of crowd that the developers are aiming to please. That's okay though, they do have a business to run, after all...

(sorry for the rant, I just kind of felt like getting this off my chest)

[6647bba37114cXkilljoy98]

ok, that is odd, want me to poke into it?

If you were talking to me, then sure if you want, IDK what you expect to find out though

[6647bba3714d9Xkilljoy98]

Jules
I am glad that easy ports exist, but I agree that sometimes the community cares more about a series than devs do.

And yeah I suppose fans of the original may not be the audience, but I wish we were.

[6647bba371669icemann]

Hell, despite the long mysterious wait, I'll still play + stream it whenever its out.

[6647bba371afcJDoran]

last two playthroughs of SS1 have been on the Shockolate port, and I've never felt like trying out the EE.

I've always meant to try Shockolate, but somehow never got around to it. What is it like? How does it differ from the original? And I read that it had a potentially game-killing save-game bug, is that still there?

And I see that the latest public version  is 0.7.7 . Is there anywhere I can download later versions than that from, please?

[6647bba371cb8voodoo47]

no, there actually is not, something I'm planning to change in a couple of weeks. you pretty much have to go to the Shockolate discord and ask the mods there to compile the latest build for you. anyway, see attach, for a changelog you will have to explore the list of fixed issues on github.
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[6647bba371f75Xkilljoy98]

icemann
Same, I may have issues with it but I will still play it out of curiosity, because I have followed it for so long, and for the wiki

[6647bba3723e1Briareos H]

Jules
That's why I've never truly warmed up to the work of NDS. It is clear that they are putting money towards bringing the old to the masses, and that they have been funding quality developers (e.g. KEX) and smaller studios but in the example that I know of, it was done without bringing the community together (although I guess simply re-releasing the game will inevitably bring fresh blood to a community). Quake Remastered received a very warm welcome, mainly because of the MachineGames episodes but also thanks to the clean KEX port, but ultimately the port rewrote things that didn't need to be rewritten and ends up being largely incompatible with the existing source ports. When people play new community maps, they typically don't bother with the KEX port, so the net effect was to fragment the source ports a bit more.

As for the System Shock remake, things are a bit different since it's a completely new game rather than pieces of software that can be commissioned by Nightdive. I agree that people on this forum are not the target audience but I'm also of those who think that a true remake (and not a remaster/EE) must do new things and target a new audience. It's their project I'm the most interested in.

[6647bba3727d7ZylonBane]

...I'm also of those who think that a true remake (and not a remaster/EE) must do new things and target a new audience.

The problem with doing new things is that Night Dive is clearly no Looking Glass. They don't seem to really "get" immersive sims.

[6647bba372b65Xkilljoy98]

Briareos H I suppose people will always want different things from a remake, I like 1:1 remakes more myself, but don't mind reimagining's if done well and if it still fits the game.

IDK if I am getting too upset at the changes but it just feels like a lot worked in SS1 (it just needed mouselook and EE had that), and I feel like all these changes add up to a very different game outside of certain things being mostly the same.

I think a remake should please existing fans but also reach new ones too.

But in any case, I think a remake should value what the original was.

I first played SS1 in 2015 when I was in High School so I don't think reaching new people is an issue with the original

[6647bba3736d0Jules]

ZylonBaneThis really hits the nail on the head. Getting the immersive sim formula right is no easy task at all, and among today's videogame companies only Arkane Studios seems to have somewhat carried on the tradition. Certainly not Night Dive.

Xkilljoy98I really agree with your comment on how the original System Shock feels perfect even up to this day.  This reminded me of a comment by Warren Spector where he mentions how, in a way, SS1 perfected the immersive sim formula by trimming out the RPG elements from the Underworld games and focusing on tight gameplay, engrossing narration (voice logs may be an overdone mechanic today, but it still feels fresh in SS1) and a pretty original aesthetic (only indies seem to occasionally get that style of sci-fi right nowadays).

I feel like telling about my own experience for some perspective. I'm not old enough to have played the game back in 1994, so there's no nostalgia involved for me at all. For a long time, whenever I looked at screenshots of SS1, I felt like the game was immensely dated and not worth playing today at all. I was really surprised when, upon trying the game out, I quickly got past the dated presentation and was amazed at how everything felt just right as a game. From that day, I can safely say that SS1, along with the UU games, are among my favorite first-person games along with the more known Thief/Deus Ex/SS2. In a way, I don't even feel the need for a remaster at all, considering how much I've enjoyed going through the original game despite being exactly the kind of person whom a remaster would be aimed at.

Briareos HI too am saddened by how these commercial remasters end up splitting the communities between those players who would rather just play an easy to download version on Steam, and those who are willing to put a little extra effort to use what's been provided for years by the community. The Blood Remaster? We already have a faithful eDuke32-based port with nBlood. The Blade Runner remaster? ScummVM, we've had a perfect port for a while. The Infinity Engine EEs? I have no doubt that these, sadly, reduced interest in the long-developed engine recreation GemRB, which is nonetheless still going to likely be the way to play the game in the long run, given its open nature.

I understand that some of these open projects might be released under a license that doesn't allow for commercial exploitation, but I can't help to sometimes feel that proprietary ports with extra features on top are there to justify a higher price tag, too.

JDoranI'd say go for it, I can't think of a reason not to. I didn't encounter any noticeable bug, especially no save-breaking one, and the experience is pretty much the same, other than some quality-of-life optional improvements such as mouselook or texture filtering.

[6647bba373bdfOName]

Jules
Tbh, I think the normies who don't want to spend the slightest effort on finding community versions don't deserve the best experience. And for more complicated games in the vein of the System Shocks, they, in all likelihood, wouldn't really get anywhere even if they did get it.

[6647bba373ee4JDoran]

no, there actually is not, something I'm planning to change in a couple of weeks. you pretty much have to go to the Shockolate discord and ask the mods there to compile the latest build for you. anyway, see attach, for a changelog you will have to explore the list of fixed issues on github.

That's great, thanks. I've just tested it and it works, using the data from the System Shock classic (not the enhanced edition) on Good Old Games, I will give it a proper go when I get home.

[6647bba374003Xkilljoy98]

I am glad easy to find remasters exist but if they are unavailable or need modding then I am more then willing to do it

[6647bba37410evoodoo47]

yes, you need the Classic data, iirc SOUND and DATA in a RES folder in the root of wherever the Shockolate files are.

[6647bba374295JDoran]

Yep, I had to spend a few minutes experimenting (and wondering why the Enhanced Edition's files didn't work with Shockolate). It might be an idea for the port to try to detect the needed files and, if they aren't where they should be, then to give an error message saying that the files (and which ones, or at least what folder's contents) should be in the \RES\DATA folder, in the Shockolate folder.

As it is, Shockolate simply exits back to the desktop if it can't find the files, which is of no help whatsoever.

[6647bba37438dvoodoo47]

SSPTool 2.0 sometime this October, probably.

[6647bba374911icemann]

Briareos H I suppose people will always want different things from a remake, I like 1:1 remakes more myself, but don't mind reimagining's if done well and if it still fits the game.

For me 1:1 should be more your remasters, which is all the rage these days. I'm totally happy with those, as their generally just higher resolution support and models (in the case of 3D games), and support for more modern systems and platforms. Via these we've been getting lots of games lately which featured only on consoles (Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance, Spiderman etc etc).

For anything gameplay changes or content additions (remakes) - I'm fine with these too. In ages gone we got Dune 2000 (remake of Dune 2), Metroid Zero Mission (remake of Metroid 1), and more recently got some gems like The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening on the Switch (remake of Links Awakening on the Gameboy). These one's work if the original gameplay style is maintained.

As for SSR - Jury is still out. Release shall reveal, as earlier stated. Though impressions from the demo releases indicate a big difference. Worst case scenario if it's meh then still got enhanced edition to fall back on.

[6647bba374ac7Xkilljoy98]

Also speaking on the topic of the Remake, I made custom edits of the Remake's Cyborg Enforcer concept art to make it more like the original (and imo better).

I would have liked to have made further edits to make it more like the original but going off of just the existing art I think what I came up with is ok and an improvement upon NDS design nonetheless.
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[6647bba374c5dPacmikey]

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[6647bba374fdeXkilljoy98]

Honestly I wouldn't bother with all you just listed. When Citadel gets released it will be the definitive "faithful remake" that appeals to the purists. Demaking the remake seems redundant imo.

Also as stated, modding UE4 games that aren't meant to be modded is a huge pain in the ass. And good luck finding people who would add the dart pistol, cut enemies, lighting changes, etc, all of the same quality as NDS, and for free. The remake DOES have the classic enemy sprites (when you use various substances), which is about as far as I could see it going.

The only reasonable change I see happening is classic music.

I guess and yeah citadel looks neat tho last time I checked it, it seemed unfinished but IDK where it is now.

And yeah maybe it is hard but I would like to get it done if possible, ideally have the original weapons, items, models/enemies, etc

But if nothing else than the music

Why NDS won't do it themselves IDK

Like do they want to make SS1 or do they really want to make SS2?

Also it isn't demaking it, it's fixing the problems and bad changes from the current remake.

[6647bba3751fbicemann]

Demaking the remake seems redundant imo.

I dunno about that. If someone demaked SS1 or SS2 into NES 8-bit style, I'd definitely play that.