SSR System Shock Remake Feedback Request - Night Dive Studios

[6634c4ccb5da8Hikari]

Being able to quick hack robots for temporary allies would be interesting. Then again they're shooting at you while you're trying to hack them and if they aren't something else is., so maybe not such a good idea.

[6634c4ccb6017voodoo47]

such additions would perhaps be best suited for some sort of an "enhanced gameplay mode" stretch goal. the "classic mode" should have priority (and be the default thing). again, not making a game that pays a homage to SS1, but a SS1 remake. well, this is actually NightDive's decision, but as far as I understand, a remake is where they want to take this.


I have just realized that I'm (somewhat unsurprisingly) taking a Shock Community Patch approach to this - just like I want to (re)make SS2 into the best version of itself, I would also like to see SS1 remade into the best version of itself. and I would also apply a very similar set of goals and rules to achieve this. and SCP rule no. 1 is, don't change the core mechanics. tweak, enhance, build upon what already exists, rebalance, but don't touch the mechanics. as SCP always needs to be SS2, and not something else.

[6634c4ccb61baZylonBane]

The Sensurround upgrade might be a bit pointless these days. With sluggish keyboard-look, it was useful. With mouselook, not so much.

[6634c4ccb62dcvoodoo47]

yeah, it could be dropped completely, or reworked - the upgrades could, for example, provide nightvision and infra instead of screen update speed. this would be perfectly fine even for the classic mode - again, if it's bad or doesn't work properly, fixing it is perfectly ok.

anyway, lets not get too much into details at this point. not yet.

[6634c4ccb66d8ThiefsieFool]

If you're going to look for stuff to add you might as well look into what was still in the game at some point, for instance I was always intrigued by these machines and how they were supposed to work. (selling patches and ammo most likely, but without a currency you could only "barter")

[6634c4ccb6911Kolya]

My respect for you actually planning to create something with the IP you got. I mean that.

Whether it's a good idea to do a remake, especially when you're apparently on a limited budget, I don't know. Anyone who wanted to play SS1 probably already did that a short time ago. And even if these people will ask for a very faithful remake, it would actually bore them and focus their attention on the differences and shortcomings, if you're not able to create a highly polished AAA game. Like Alien Isolation, which is thematically close but obviously cost mountains of money. Or Black Mesa, which is a successful remake, but took 40 developers 8 years to make.

Alternatively you could diverge from the original. You could try to introduce some clever new mechanics through the backdoor. Like being able to switch between the real world and cyberspace any time and cyberspace is this digital mesh version of reality. Nobody really liked cyberspace as it were. So there's room to improve.
 
In the end though you'd probably be better off creating a new game. Because it's easier to create a decent new game than to recreate a legendary game in a way that pleases the majority. So why not SS3? Anyway, good luck.

[6634c4ccb6f10Marvin]

careful tweaks and additions should be ok, but one way or another, caution would be advised - making the game NOT feel like SS1 is probably a bad idea. for example, adding friendly AIs might sound like a good plan, but the overall SS1 atmosphere would take a punch in the face. SS1 should not have friendly AIs, end of story.

Check, and...

anyway, lets not get too much into details at this point. not yet.

check.

[6634c4ccb7217ZylonBane]

Anyone who wanted to play SS1 probably already did that a short time ago.

Or started to, took one look at it, and went "Nope."

[6634c4ccb769bRocketMan]

1) Spend as little time and money as possible on SS1 and put that into SS3 so that it doesn't suffer from any sort of deadline or funding bullshit.

2) Don't try to target a broad demographic.  If you do the game will suck.

3) Before you do anything, have every person who's going to be involved in development (including the developers themselves) play the original games a couple of times through just for fun.  Get them all into the correct mindset.

4) This is some ~20 years later and games have e(de)volved a lot.  Stick to basics.  Stick to core principles that made the old games good.  Don't get sucked into a vortex of trying to stylize or uberfy anything.

5)  People whine and complain about game complexity.  You have to read between the lines.  Complexity can and has been a GOOD thing.  Cumbersome or broken game mechanics are not.

6)  Trust the people who are the closest to and most passionate about the game.  If you just recently got a boner for System Shock, that doesn't count.

7)  Honor the plot line.

[6634c4ccb79b4voodoo47]

Whether it's a good idea to do a remake, especially when you're apparently on a limited budget, I don't know.

that's why Kickstarter, I'd guess - to see how much people would want a remake.

[6634c4ccb7d3dantimatter_16]

I'm curious what Night Dive is defining "remake" as. Seems like there are different expectations of what that is.

It's very doubtful this would be a sort of "enhanced original version" like Baldur's Gate EE in which the original game engine and resources were used with some mild updates to graphics and the engine. I'm guessing they're going to recreate the levels in another engine like Unreal, which would cut engine development costs. That leaves us to wonder how faithful of a recreation they're intending it to be. Are they going to be exacting in recreating the levels? Will they be like the originals just with major eye candy enhancements? Would I be able to recognize where I was if I'd play the original SS1? Or the remake going to be a bit more looser with more creative freedoms taken? Rearranging areas and layout?

Personally, I'd prefer a more faithful remake, and I imagine it would speed development to be able to closely follow the original. Some here seem more bent on a reboot, in which the core ideas are taken to create an entirely new game that is base very loosely on the original.

[6634c4ccb9a38pripyatbeast]

Thanks to everyone who shared suggestions and ideas so far - it's given us a lot to think about and consider. We're in the process of cataloging them all and will be discussing them internally. For now here are some answers/replies to some of them:

Multiplayer: This is another beast entirely and while I agree that co-op would be a great feature the amount of work involved will have to be carefully considered. It is something that's been brought up in discussion that we'll explore further down the line.
Level Editor & Mods: Mod support is another thing we'd love to include and would make a great stretch goal if we can determine the amount of work it will take to provide adequate tools to the community.
Soundtrack: We are composing a brand new soundtrack.

Don't make me have to buy a new rig just to play.
This will come down to how well we can optimize the game. With all the settings turned on to Ultra and running at 4K will require a beefy machine, but all the effects and advanced video options will be scalable from the main menu. We've had lots of problems with integrated Intel graphics so an entry level Nvidia card will probably be a minimum requirement.

Please look at linux.
We've tried to release as many of our games on Linux as possible, and will do the same for this game.

Source Code?
Will have to consult with our legal team to see if this is possible. We released the code to Strife: Veterans Edition and will most likely release the code to other titles.

Scaling UI
I have a 4K monitor and have experienced how non-scaling UI ruins workflows.

Remappable Controls.
We will have this.

Easy to use Mapping/Modding Tools.
See above, this is wishlist territory and would require a massive amount of work.

Getting to see more of the setting.
Allow us to tackle problems in our own ways.
Choices that Matter.

We aren't deviating very far from the original design and mechanics, but I agree - I'd personally love to see more of the station.

Keep the horror house feel and sound.
We're completely re-designing the sounds, music, and atmosphere - it's still Shock, but it will be scarier. You'll finally get to see the full extent of Shodan's experiments on the crew members and the effect she's had on the station.

ZERO Micro-Transactions
We are saving these for our SHODAN themed Angry Bird mobile game

Oh! A manual.
We are building a "TriOptimum Employee Handbook" that will be a prop from the game, and include the standard stuff from a game manual.

- don't use the original level geometry.
We are using the original level geo as a guide, but are fixing wonky areas, non-manifold geometry, and improving the flow overall.

- unless the aforementioned concept was one whacky idea out of a dozen, please tone down the effects.
The effects and various post processing features can be disabled from the video options.

- here's something for a nifty stretch goal: Add a playable intro where you can experience (parts of) Citadel before Shodan's takeover. Doesn't need to be long, in fact, it shouldn't be too long, but it'd be a nice way to see more of the world and interact with some of the characters.
Great idea!

- add more choices
We have to be careful about messing with the original design/puzzles too much - but if we see an opportunity to add more depth we'll consider it.

- Make a serious effort to fix cyberspace
We are completely redesigning cyberspace.

- I'm glad you got Terri on board, but please ditch the rest of the voice over
We are re-recording all the voice over with professional voice actors - for the demo we are releasing to the public we will be using remastered versions of the original VO, but it's temporary.

I don't have much to say except this: make sure there are proper difficulty settings.
We love the multiple difficulty levels in Shock and will be implementing a similar system.

-Try to nail combat harder than in the original game, as it is the core of the game yet was a little underwhelming If we're being honest here, even with all the player choice and freedom of movement.
We want the combat to be visceral and the weapons to have weight. One of my personal wishlist goals is to have a dynamic dismemberment system similar to dead space or the original soldier of fortune. There are so many great weapons in Shock, each one should damage enemies accordingly.

I also propose the typical hand-holders can be added exclusively to lower difficulties. Add new modifiers for navigation, namely objective markers.
Great idea.

I'll be answering more questions soon!

[6634c4ccb9c03voodoo47]

with the small exception of the hw requirements (intel gpu people are numerous, and I'm not sure whether ignoring them completely is such a good idea), I quite like what I see so far.

[6634c4ccb9db5Join2]

I have zero complaints. Good stuff.

I'm curious about the new soundtrack though. Please be brave with that. I'm sick and tired of all the modern generic ambient soundtracks. Soundtracks should establish & enhance the atmosphere, aid in telling the story, and also be fitting to the gameplay. Not be merely ambient noise that barely makes itself known (unless it's fitting to do so). Bonus points for notable variety in genres & style whilst following these rules, much like SS2 or DX.

[6634c4ccb9f98Hikari]

I can understand if Intel is so problematic you have to just abandon but it is regrettable. That said the integrated I have is quite old, so aiming at something newer isn't entirely out of line if it means you need to dump twice the effort in. Engine optimizations can come later after all.

The idea of a prop-like manuel for the game amuses me greatly and I'm hoping it isn't going to require too high a reward tier to obtain..

Glad you're looking at the idea of 'easy/casual' difficulty having extra hand-holdy measures that fall away when you increase the difficulty setting.

I'm with another poster here and recommending your guys play the original, possibly also shock 2 (if you play shock 2 I'd recommend Christine's fan missions (ponterbee, nightwalker, polaris, and the vaccation level,) System Shock Infinite, and even just the community patch because they add a lot to the game (christine's architecture alone is pretty badass.)

Keep us looped in guys.

Edit: Oh you mentioned the strife source code. About that... while it's great that's in the wild, nobody that I've talked to was able to walk me through how to compile it either on windows or linux. Just as a note if you do so again it'd be nice to include an idiot's guide to turning Source into something useable for both windows and linux. Source is great, but if I can't easily find a way to put it to use it may as well be a thing that sits on a shelf.

[6634c4ccba263Myagi]

While it might be interesting to see Citadel remade with realistic modern AAA standards, I see two issues. One is that the amount of work seems out of scope. If there were budget and manpower to do that, they might as well have done SS3 themselves. The other is that there just is something about original SS1 look that is unparallelled. The mood it invokes. Redoing it realistically would probably result in something feeling a lot different. Which also would make it questionable doing SS1 in the first place, rather than SS3.

Based on that I actually liked the approach of those released remake screenshots/mockups. Keeping the abstract and original mood, with some touchup. I'm not sure how much of those shots are actual shots and how much of them is photoshopped. To keep abstract feel I'd like to see the game look exactly (to the pixel) like those screenshots (DOF and bloom effects aside, I expect those to be configurable so I'm not talking about that). What I mean is what I like to call the interactive concept art look. Dishonored really nailed that for me. It was like playing concept art. A lot of times I could take a screenshot of that game, and looking at the shot it was like "wait a minute, is that concept art or an actual shot".

That may not be everyones cup of tea, but personally I've always enjoyed concept art, and find it mostly looks better (or more mood invoking and wanting to be in the world) than the actual games. I'm guessing due to a certain abstractness they often have, that lets the mind fill in stuff. In the case of SS1 I think triggering those mental buttons is a good match. The pixelated (from no texture filtering and sprites) look and the more abstract world did that back then, and the "concept art look" from the mockup shots could be the ticket to achieve the same awe inspiring mood and immersion again, while using higher quality texturing and 3D detail.

[6634c4ccba74fJoin2]

The idea of a prop-like manuel for the game amuses me greatly and I'm hoping it isn't going to require too high a reward tier to obtain..

Pretty sure he means an in-game document you discover, likely in the first room, that acts as an on demand tutorial, and implemented with simulation in mind to some degree (hence "Tri-op employee manual"). Not certain though.

While it might be interesting to see Citadel remade with realistic modern AAA standards, I see two issues. One is that the amount of work seems out of scope. If there were budget and manpower to do that, they might as well have done SS3 themselves. The other is that there just is something about original SS1 look that is unparallelled. The mood it invokes. Redoing it realistically would probably result in something feeling a lot different. Which also would make it questionable doing SS1 in the first place, rather than SS3.

Yeah, as much as I'm not a fan of the simplistic geometry and lack of interesting things to see and do and be challenged by room to room, changing it too much is beyond the suspected scope and the game will indeed lose a lot of its identity, as level design is very central to the whole experience. So I like the approach of keeping the original as a base with sensible renovations and new interactive content. Much like a mod in that regard.  Plus modern ultra detail is not only a budget hog, but a time and design focus hog too. 

[6634c4ccba9b4Learonys]

I loved the soundtrack of the original. However, it did feel off at times. Hearing this guitar going mad while killing mutants - however it sounded great - did not make much sense to me. You can add this kind of music anytime you want, but i would love a more SS2-esque approach on this, making the music location-dependant, with the funky soundtrack of SS1, but quiet when it needs to be.

Story-wise, i would love to see a stretch goal where a "what-if-mode" would be introduced. This would be unlocked after completing the canonical ending. You could play as different people, and different scenario's would be played. What if Bianca Schuler would have arrested Edward Diego on time? You could play as her, gathering evidence, and depending on how well you do you could have different outcomes.
What if the hacker felt like something went wrong and created a safeguard when hacking in shodan. You could be the one at the computer at the intro, actually writing lines of codes (with guidance off course) which influence certain parts of the game? Maybe with these changes there could have been survivors.
What if the hacker sprinted to the flight deck and actually saved Parovski?
What if the shuttle containing Triop troops dodged the attacks from SHODAN and actually entered the station? You could blast your way through the enemies as one of the troops.

Enemies in SS1 were honestly quite generic. Most of them looked the same. I would like to see certain enemies made more unique. To me, the enforcer cyborg never looked super-tough, yet it was an absolute tank. Just a random thought here, but what if you give her arms and legs some sort of energy-shield which she uses to blocks attacks, which makes her resistant to melee attacks and single-shot weapons, forcing you to barrage her with an automatic rifle or throw a grenade behind her. Shields need time to charge, after all.

If you end a time limit to the game, make the time-limit unique to each mission. A 7 hour countdown from the beginning of the game, where you would otherwise die to the well-known Vortex reaver just felt out of place.

[6634c4ccbad17Nameless Voice]

with the small exception of the hw requirements (intel gpu people are numerous, and I'm not sure whether ignoring them completely is such a good idea), I quite like what I see so far.

I really don't see why this is such a strong requirement for people.  It's a game.  A minimum system for gaming will always have some form of dedicated graphics card.  It seems foolish to cripple the game's visuals for most people just to accommodate those people who are running it on ancient/unsuitable PCs.

[6634c4ccbb16aZylonBane]

Enemies in SS1 were honestly quite generic. Most of them looked the same.

WTF, System Shock has some of the most visually distinctive enemies in any game I've ever played. They had to be visually distinctive due to the low-res sprites used to depict them.

Here's a list of SS1's enemies. Tell us which ones you think look mostly the same. And no, "has arms and legs" doesn't count as looking the same.

[6634c4ccbb2a8Hikari]

Am I the only one that now wants a triop-angry-birds or flappy bird clone for the updated minigame roster?

[6634c4ccbb7c0zoog]

lets not make this into a corridor rail shooter with System Shock textures.

Remember SS2: on low levels it was much like easy storytelling game. Maybe some cheap-to-implement options like let'-s-not-name-it-here-console-attributes would expand the target market without hurting intelligent beings.

the levels need to feel like a real space station, not just "rooms where monsters jump at you". this was (very) ok 20 years ago, but would be almost comical nowadays.

It means a whole new game - taking quite some k$ AND people resouces from (almost mythical) SS3. It's needed, but without fanatism.

or people disliked it, fix it, and don't listen what the hardcore purists say

OR make it optional. Purism is cool. Not meaning don't-do-mouselook of course)

[6634c4ccbb9d8fox]

Maybe a poll would be interesting where people can multi-vote for elements that they feel would need some modernisation (UI, AI, physics, controls, difficulty, cyberspace, sound, etc.) . I don't really believe in "democratic game development" but since it's pretty safe to assume that most people here are well familiar with the franchise and not just random kids blabbing, it might help indicate critical elements. Still to be taken with a grain of salt, of course.

[6634c4ccbbdf6Learonys]

WTF, System Shock has some of the most visually distinctive enemies in any game I've ever played. They had to be visually distinctive due to the low-res sprites used to depict them.

Here's a list of SS1's enemies. Tell us which ones you think look mostly the same. And no, "has arms and legs" doesn't count as looking the same.

Sorry, i misworded here. What i actually meant is that the enemies act pretty much the same, with the sole exception that some are more hostile, have more health and uses projectile-based weapons at times. They're very generic in that aspect.