SSR System Shock Remake Feedback Request - Night Dive Studios

[6647ced77f248Aurora]

I hope it's not going to be like Alien: Isolation where you crawl around slowly and it's mostly about the visuals.

[6647ced77f64bMarvin]

Well, they're putting all their eggs in the SS3 basket, and given the graphical fidelity of the remake, 900k is not too much to ask for. At least with that sum they can actually build the whole game instead of relying on a hidden figure which is actually much higher.

The Kickstarter fatigue is a real problem, I agree on that, but I'd expect Night Dive to get a lot more attention and thus backers than Otherside did with Underworld. System Shock is a much bigger name, they have the Bioshock dudebro audience to siphon a couple of bucks off, and they have a finished alpha demo instead of some vague ideas and promises.

Physical copies are a necessity. Kickstarter is about nostalgia, period. And nostalgic gamers want boxes. I'd like boxes back, too, but I'm not forking over a hundred bucks for a pre-order on Kickstarter for what would have cost less than half a few years ago, and for a finished product.

[6647ced77f9f6RocketMan]

2 things I got from reading all that:

1) He's not going to go after JosiahJack
2) He's not going to interfere in Otherside's development of SS3

RocketMan is very pleased.

...and yes, I'm pissed off about boxes kicking the bucket.  All my favourite PC games of all time came in boxes and they were fantastic.  So beautiful.

[6647ced77fd1dMarvin]

2) He's not going to interfere in Otherside's development of SS3

Why would they? They're co-funding that, aren't they?
Ah, now I get it... no, better to leave it to the pros I guess.

[6647ced77feddJoin2]

At this point I'm more hopeful of NightDive delivering than OtherSide.
Warren Spector has "no interest in games about men in armor" putting a big question mark on the intentions and motivations behind SS3, and Underworld Ascendant currently is not really reminding me of Underworld and legendary LGS design to the extent I'd like. A bunch of things are "off".  Meanwhile NightDive have been hammering away seemingly staying true to the old ways where logical to do so and have already produced good results. 

[6647ced780267Learonys]

At this point I'm more hopeful of NightDive delivering than OtherSide.
Warren Spector has "no interest in games about men in armor" putting a big question mark on the intentions and motivations behind SS3, and Underworld Ascendant currently is not really reminding me of Underworld and legendary LGS design to the extent I'd like. A bunch of things are "off".  Meanwhile NightDive have been hammering away seemingly staying true to the old ways where logical to do so and have already produced good results.

Well let's be honest here, building a remaster is considerably easier than building a sequel to a nearly two decade old game. I can't say much about Underworld Ascendant, as I haven't backed it nor have i played the originals, but I am following their progress closely and from what i've seen so far Otherside, much like Night Dive, really listens to (the feedback of) their community. I have faith in them both

[6647ced7803caJoin2]

What's easier or harder is not relevant in this context. I'm talking about intentions and motivations. NightDive seem to intend to remake the game in a faithful manner, and currently there's no catch, no small print. System Shock 3 is being headed by someone who just a couple years ago declared an absolute lack of interest in making games that involve swinging swords or shooting shit in the face. Underworld Ascendant has things like proposed co-op gameplay that the devs were seemingly passionate about, despite the fact it doesn't fit in too well with the LG experience, among other things.

[6647ced7807b3Learonys]

What's easier or harder is not relevant in this context. I'm talking about intentions and motivations. NightDive seem to intend to remake the game in a faithful manner, and currently there's no catch, no small print. System Shock 3 is being headed by someone who just a couple years ago declared an absolute lack of interest in making games that involve swinging swords or shooting shit in the face. Underworld Ascendant has things like proposed co-op gameplay that the devs were seemingly passionate about, despite the fact it doesn't fit in too well with the LG experience, among other things.

From your comments, you give me the impression that you want Otherside to innovate. But then you say you don't want Otherside to do things LGS didn't. But many things LGS did was innovative and relatively new, limiting them in what they're allowed to does not sound very creativity inducing. Co-op isn't an inherently bad thing, and one of the main reasons SS2's co-op sucked and other games did not have it at all was because of engine limitations, whether they are hardware or software related i'm not sure. But we live in 2016 and anything is possible, so give them the freedom to do what they want. Once again, I have faith in them.

[6647ced7809d9Join2]

I desire iteration more than innovation, though they both sometimes go hand-in-hand. This isn't the 90s anymore, much has already been done in the gaming space so being the first to make such bold steps such as the creation of new genres (that are also actually good concepts) is extremely difficult, though still desirable. Furthermore the co-op related things they proposed in the UA Kickstarter in particular were neither innovative nor an evolution inline with their design principles. To be properly immersed in something requires no fourth wall breaking or outside influence. So in other words, no social interaction that extends to the real world.

"limiting them in what they're allowed to does not sound very creativity inducing"

Rules ensure creative works form a cohesive whole. I only desire they follow their own rules set many years ago rather than doing bog-standard stuff everyone else is doing such as "crafting" windows. They're making Ultima Underworld 3, not an entirely new IP, that in of itself is a limitation on creativity, yet still not a bad thing.

[6647ced780db2Marvin]

At this point I'm more hopeful of NightDive delivering than OtherSide.
Warren Spector has "no interest in games about men in armor" putting a big question mark on the intentions and motivations behind SS3, and Underworld Ascendant currently is not really reminding me of Underworld and legendary LGS design to the extent I'd like. A bunch of things are "off".  Meanwhile NightDive have been hammering away seemingly staying true to the old ways where logical to do so and have already produced good results. 

Who cares. Warren Spector is a producer, always has been. He's great at collecting talent, collecting boatloads of money, and managing those things. He said similar things during and after development of DX and look how great it turned out to be, largely thanks to the skills of Harvey Smith.

[6647ced780ee2Join2]

Producers do have notable influence on design. But ultimately it is Warren Spector and people can change their opinions and desires. Given that he took the job he must have a regained interest in blowing up cyborgs and brawling with mutants. 

[6647ced781246ThiefsieFool]

Warren Spector at the very least played some significant amount of DX3 and is following the sequel's development by commenting on the trailers and so on.
Not only that but he was working on a game called Necessary Evil as late as 2007, that was supposed to be a Deus Ex spiritual successor, that IP is owned by Disney now but he's still thinking about it https://twitter.com/Warren_Spector/status/731485755302797312
Doubts that he's gone too soft to make an FPS are greatly exaggerated.

[6647ced7813a1Marvin]

http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/24/12007602/system-shock-kickstarter-campaign-rewards-screens-demo

- It's only called System Shock now...
- A demo will be available on launch of the KS campagin (hurray!)
- The KS box will look like this (ZB trigger warning: The grove count on the cover is dangerously high)

[6647ced7814f9ZylonBane]

I'm more concerned that they deliberately fucked up the SS1-era TriOptimum logo, which was much wider than it was tall. It doesn't even match the SS2 version of the logo.

[6647ced781677Marvin]

What gives you the notion there is any need or want to recreate exact representations of the old designs? You can't "fuck something up" that you never intended to do in the first place. I'm fairly sure the cover artist didn't just make the design from memory and went "Ah, close enough".

[6647ced781754RocketMan]

Maybe they're doing what MS did with the windows logo...

[6647ced7819f6Marvin]

Maybe they're doing what MS did with the windows logo...

Sure looks like it.

[6647ced781aeaJoin2]

A playable demo? Nice. They're confident, and I like that.

[6647ced781c01ThiefsieFool]

Yeah nice of them to include a demo, it wasn't all talk when they said they'll try to be better prepared than older kickstarter campaigns...
I'll be quite satisfied if they have at least the first two levels in there as Medical is quite well trod territory by now.

[6647ced781e55ZylonBane]

Maybe they're doing what MS did with the windows logo...

Retroactively change what it was two decades ago? 

If the SS3 team tweaks the TriOp logo, that's fine, because corporate logos do change. SS2 already did it once. But changing the SS1 TriOp logo (to a boring perfectly symmetrical design) goes against all existing media documenting how it looked during that time period, and is thus just capricious change for the sake of change. There was nothing wrong with the logo that needed fixing.

[6647ced781f53RocketMan]

I see your point.  I think the grove thing still bugs me more though because it's a playable area rather than a symbol but that's just how it affects me.

[6647ced78225aMarvin]

Retroactively change what it was two decades ago? 

If the SS3 team tweaks the TriOp logo, that's fine, because corporate logos do change. SS2 already did it once. But changing the SS1 TriOp logo (to a boring perfectly symmetrical design) goes against all existing media documenting how it looked during that time period, and is thus just capricious change for the sake of change. There was nothing wrong with the logo that needed fixing.

Didn't you notice the name change? The remaster is supposedly going in the direction of trying to supplant the original instead of continuinig its legacy. I'd expect them to add or change a lot of items to bring the game more in line with their vision of SS3. Apart from retconning SS2 stuff (they don't want to remake that, correct?), they're pretty much free to do as they please.

[6647ced7823dbvoodoo47]

unless the SS1 remake bombs completely, a SS2 remake is pretty much guaranteed.

[6647ced7824b8ZylonBane]

I'm doubtful. Remaking SS2 would probably be a much more expensive proposition.