System Shock remake and System Shock 3

[663d61ae9e99cvoodoo47]

yeah, not a fan of the useless round hud parts at the screen edges either. reminded me of Bioshock 2's helmet edges - while "realistic", they were too obtrusive and I had to turn them off right away.

they also reminded me of Deus Ex invisible war, and that is not something I like to be reminded of.

[663d61ae9eb4cfox]

Hell yeah, that demo-clip looks very promising - although I have yet to give it a closer look!

@Kolya: the "one man saves the world"- narrative is not a Cyberpunk-inherent thing at all. It's just something game writers used to attach to pretty much everything. I would even go so far to say that like classic hardboiled fiction/noir, it's a genre that lends itself very well to stories that show how little of a difference a single person can make, despite all the desperate action that might have ensued. Those detectives/lone hackers usually are broken anti-heroes that often come out barely alive, betrayed and even more cynic then before.

[663d61ae9f1f3Quindorrian]

Sure basic gameplay IS Looking Glass. That won't change. But I see a number of people talking about another Haunted House experience, retreading that same ideal. I'm not sure that is the best call..it may be the right call. There are other fears than isolation. What happens if Shodan gets into the wild? What happens if she 'wins'? Either of these threads won't allow the game to take place in a vacuum. Anyway...

But Cyberspace and cyberpunk in general has so many new and interesting threads to pull. Cyborg-ism, bio-enginnering, hell, computing in general has completely changed since 99.

All of this said, I'm head down in Underworld right now and honestly try not to give Shock too many brain cells.

Well said, Chris.  I like the idea of exploring these things rather than retreading old territory ad naseum. 

That said--look at Star Trek TNG vs. TOS, or BattleStar vs old Battlestar. You can nod back to the originals but still modernize. Like old Trek, there has been so much advancement in our world that some of Shock just isn't Sci-fi anymore. It may come off very forced if we just retro it. Unlike the Alien game, which worked because the noises, wall patterns, suit design exc, not only became the genre, but frankly were designed by Gieger, so calling back to that completely works.

Agree strongly here.  Sounds like you really "get it" and that is just awesome.  New Battlestar was a amazing, btw   Just saying...   

[663d61ae9f3a9Producer_chris]

Well, most Cyberpunk of that era really is just noir.
First I've seen of that remake alpha. cool.

First off, games and the lone wolf is so overdone for obvious reasons.
I guess part of what I question is twofold. The lone hacker story line is one of them. Is there another way?
The other is claustrophobia and Isolophobia are not the only fears to explore. Part of what makes sequels interesting is flipping the convention on it's head. Hell, part of what making games is interesting is doing that, like we did with Thief, a FPS that you suck at killing. I wonder--and this is just me, not Warren or anyone else, but I wonder what happens when you put Shodan in a situation that is not in isolation.
The obvious answer is Skynet...but not completely. Shodan is not just angry AI, there is more there. The outcome would not be Judgement day, it would be something far more devious.
And as someone said, maybe this is not for this sequel. Maybe this is the re-introduction story. Maybe we should just hit the beats tread in Shock 1 and 2. Maybe enough time has past and the old would be new again.
But would that really be the Looking Glass way?

[663d61ae9f832Join2]

Watch Dogs used contemporary topics like mass surveillance and hyper connectivity and that's where I would like to see System Shock go.

Too much focus on such themes and this will be dangerously close to being Deus Ex, not System Shock. Then again if the game is set on a space colony there'd be some interesting potential perhaps.

Didnt see it posted so..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPLF9Ad9ns

Very nice! Looking for things to criticize but it is not easy. About all that stood out was the idle sway anim of the hammer thingy, very short noticable loop.

[663d61ae9fb21fox]

And as someone said, maybe this is not for this sequel. Maybe this is the re-introduction story. Maybe we should just hit the beats tread in Shock 1 and 2. Maybe enough time has past and the old would be new again.
But would that really be the Looking Glass way?

Well, Bioshock already recycled alot and was very popular quite recently.

[663d61ae9fcc7Kolya]

Bioshock recycled game mechanics and story twists - not the setting or the themes.

[663d61ae9fe15Join2]

Bioshock is not representative of the Looking Glass way, especially if we're including Infinite.

[663d61ae9ff54fox]

Infinite strays a (little) bit from the formula with its AI-companion and the numerous "two-lines of dialog"-neutral-NPCs in a superficially less enclosed environment but Bioshock 1 and 2  are very comparable to System Shock 1 and 2. Yes, different setting but same premise, similar gameplay, comparable structure.

[663d61aea0141Briareos H]

A System Shock game must be driven by technical / narrative / game design innovation. The plot doesn't matter too much at first. Don't start with the plot. The only things you need to keep are: 1. the timeline of the previous games, since it's a sequel, as well as the general direction of their aesthetics; 2. S.H.O.D.A.N. which, unfortunately (or not) has become a pre-requisite if you don't want your game to be badly received; 3. complex and dense game structures with lots of information, lots of exploration, lots of environmental interaction and lots of nonessential content; 4. first person camera; 5. shooting things. If you get all five, you have a System Shock game, whatever it does or says. Although arguably, an isolated player in a derelict environment is also a common factor, but the trope might be overplayed by now with the first two games plus Alien: Isolation recently (also the upcoming Routine and over games I might be forgetting).

[663d61aea02deProducer_chris]

We are not starting with the plot.
The past year on Underworld has been about building our 'verbs' for players to use--and the title of the game doesn't matter. The underpinnings of systems for Underworld are going to translate very nicely into Shock, and whatever else we do.
But setting and mood are important on this title..maybe more than Underworld. Breaking the 'Tolkien' mold in fantasy is not difficult, even though it is very uncommon in games. Shock's mood plays a ton into the gameplay, so it has to be thought about right up front.

1.yep
2.Yes Shodan. Of Course. Shodan is about as close to a mascot as we have. Which in some sense is really kind of disturbing.
3.yep to the nines.
4.yep we don't like 3rd person very much.
5.I like shooting things.

Bioshock - I think it was too much story, not enough player authored game play. I enjoyed it, but compared to Thief/Shock it was a step backward in the game play dept. A step forward in narrative devices. I'm a bad alumni- I haven't played the second or third ones. These days I gravitate more to the sandbox shooters, less to the corridor crawlers.

[663d61aea0612fox]

Bioshock - I think it was too much story, not enough player authored game play. I enjoyed it, but compared to Thief/Shock it was a step backward in the game play dept. A step forward in narrative devices.

Absolutely agreed!

[663d61aea0a71Join2]

Infinite strays a (little) bit from the formula with its AI-companion and the numerous "two-lines of dialog"-neutral-NPCs in a superficially less enclosed environment but Bioshock 1 and 2  are very comparable to System Shock 1 and 2. Yes, different setting but same premise, similar gameplay, comparable structure.

Yes, but Bioshock was made exclusively by Irrational, not Looking Glass. LGS never made fool-proof dumbed down rehashes* of their IPs. The LGS way was to innovate and iterate. We're all hoping this isn't going to be another Bioshock, right?

*in terms of gameplay. As has been said, setting and some other things qualified.

These days I gravitate more to the sandbox shooters, less to the corridor crawlers.

Same, but only because there are few good corridor/level-based progression shooters these days.

[663d61aea0cfficemann]

Thoughts on the video:

Positives:

* Looks fantastic. The robots and general look of the medical level looks great.
* Retains the overall dark look from the original

Neutral:
* Looks a little Doom 3ish in some ways. Especially with the amount of lense flare stuff going on.

Negatives:

* The HUD is practically non existent. Fix this ASAP.
* The look of the mutants. Looks kinda Golem-ish.
* The switch over to the hammer melee weapon. Common that wasn't even in SS1. Lead pipe was king in the original. If your going to go for sticking with the same level design, then going with the same weapons would be the best idea in early development. If you want to add new stuff in, do that later please.

So yeah, my worry here is that they are deviating from the core original stuff (ie the HUD and weapons) very early on, which is a major concern. Things put in early tend to be difficult to remove later.

I'd suggest sticking with a straight up remake to start with, and THEN go with deviations. Rather than just having them in from the get go. As it stands it looks like a straight up FPS game, which is NOT what System Shock 1 was.

Also, the main character of SS1 was a cyberpunk style hacker with no military experience. So he would be on the more weaker scale when compared to the soldier of SS2. For him to be running around whacking stuff into the ground with a huge hammer. Come on.

[663d61aea113bfox]

The LGS way was to innovate and iterate. We're all hoping this isn't going to be another Bioshock, right?

All I'm saying is that SS1, SS2, BS1 and BS2 all followed the same basic formula: you are the lone (anti-)hero stuck in an isolated environment and there's a variety of creepy zombi-like mutants plus one masterminding super-villain. Contact with neutral NPCs is almost non-existant besides the occasional audio-recording. You can shoot, 'hack' and have some freak-powers at your disposal to fight your way through the environment until you reach the mastermind. There's some environmental story-telling and you have to backtrack a lot. Some major plot twists here and there are to be expected. In this regard, SS2 did not do that much different, really.

Yes, Bioshock is inferior in almost all important aspects and I sincerely hope that Night Dive will do a better job.

[663d61aea186bJoin2]

All I'm saying is that SS1, SS2, BS1 and BS2 all followed the same basic formula:

I know, and I don't disagree. All I was saying was that Bioshock is not representative of the "LGS way" that Producer_Chris mentioned. LGS never dumbed down their games, and went down maintaining their artistic intergrity. 

So yeah, my worry here is that they are deviating from the core original stuff (ie the HUD and weapons) very early on, which is a major concern. Things put in early tend to be difficult to remove later.

The HUD in SS1 is generally considered to be undesirable though. It takes up a large portion of the screen space (ignoring that we can go full screen), has a very retro design and is very two-dimensional. This new design is more fitting. People's vision is more cone-like than it is square, of course. As long as all the gameplay function complexities is still there in the HUD/UI, and all the necessary info is conveyed, what's the big deal?

I'd suggest sticking with a straight up remake to start with, and THEN go with deviations.

Would be impractical, although it would result in the most faithful experience. But this is a re-imagining here. A faithful remake, but not entirely 1:1. This was established in the feedback thread. You can tell they really want it to be faithful, but also intend to do it "better". Consider asking in the feedback thread: "why did you go for the hammer not the lead pipe"? Probably because they believe it to be a superior choice. Bashing servebots and cyborgs with a lead pipe is not going to serve well for the pipe eventually. The space hammer would be designed for smacking things and more sturdy. Also have you ever hit anything hard with a metal pipe? Shit hurts the hell out of your hands.

[663d61aea1eb4unn_atropos]

Will have to watch that some more times.
I'm interested in what they will do with the soundtrack (generic placeholder right now- Video would have been more amazing with the Shock outro music at the end). I hope it stays dynamic and builts up on the original music
Nice Shodan thumnail picture although her chin looks a bit like a

"cucumber"

 

[shodan_thumb.jpg expired]

[663d61aea225eZylonBane]

Common that wasn't even in SS1.

Please tell me autocorrect did that.

I don't think the character is wielding a hammer. I think it's just a pipe with an elbow piece at the end.

Not sure what you mean about the HUD being nonexistent. Looks like it's conveying all the same information the original SS1 HUD does at that point in the game. Nobody needs shit like a posture indicator or an icon for your current weapon anymore.

[663d61aea24ecJoin2]

I don't think the character is wielding a hammer. I think it's just a pipe with an elbow piece at the end.

Ha. Yes, upon double checking I think you're right there.

Well, this should maybe be taken into consideration for a change in that case:

"Bashing servebots and cyborgs with a lead pipe is not going to serve well for the pipe eventually. The space hammer would be designed for smacking things and more sturdy. Also have you ever hit anything hard with a metal pipe? Shit hurts the hell out of your hands."

[663d61aea2637icemann]

Zylon: Yep auto correct. I misspell stuff all the time otherwise.

To me it looked like a hammer. Especially when he slammed it into that robot.

Rewatched the video and I definitely don't see much of a HUD. I always looked on the hacker in SS1 as more of a cyborg when compared to the SS2 equivalent, so the views went hand in hand with that for me. Kinda like Terminator view, minus the infrared stuff, as you had the heart rate monitor, health, posture + current standing status (crouch, standing etc).

I'd be fine with the inventory being done SS2 style, but the rest I'd still to like to see in some form. Feel free to disagree but that's just my view on it.

[663d61aea277fJoin2]

A real life HUD would be designed to be sleek, non-intrusive and practical. Game HUD's are generally meant to be that way too. Shock 1's was only convoluted because the game was designed to be playable entirely with the cursor. Every action on the keyboard could also be done with the cursor alone thanks to the UI function, but it was considerably convoluted and most likely held back the game some in terms of success. Regardless of that, it just isn't needed at all now that mouselook massively simplified things for the better. All other things: inventory, drag, drop and throw objects, read mail and such should remain. My fingers are also crossed for a grid-based inventory. It's just better, more interactive, and more visually appealing than a boring list of text.

[663d61aea286eicemann]

It was like that, because the player had the cybernetic interface in his head, and so saw things through that perspective. Ties in just fine to the story.

In any other game at all, I would 100% agree.

[663d61aea29ddJoin2]

Real world interfaces wouldn't work like that and never would, even if they were made in the 90s. Check google glass or military HUD prototypes for modern examples. The last thing you want is view obstruction, its highly impractical. I'm not saying reality should always take precedence but a lack of view obstruction is relevant in game design too. 

It was a product of its time in terms of game design, and a relic carried over from Ultima Underworld (the engine when used in Ultima Underworld couldn't handle full screen, before they updated it for Shock).
System Shock 2's HUD/UI is how it's done. Absolutely ingenious design and an optimized iteration of the old ways.

Stylistically, this new HUD in the remake looks appealing, but even then slightly impractical with the wireframe styling that serves no purpose other than form over function. I like it though and it's a huge improvement over SS1. How the UI comes into it and the extent of the important functionality available remains to be seen, but I'm hopeful.

[663d61aea2c80ZylonBane]

It was like that, because the player had the cybernetic interface in his head, and so saw things through that perspective. Ties in just fine to the story.

If I had a status overlay being projected directly into my field of vision, I would be driven batshit by a bunch of useless distracting clutter.

The HUD in the alpha footage has the health and energy meters, the biometer, and a compass. What else do you want?