System Shock 2 Enhanced Edition

[663f00fb976devoodoo47]

yeah, redoing the cutscenes in fullhd (and supporting that resolution for playback) would be another improvement.

also maybe support for more audio formats, iirc Dark needs a very specific format for the logs and mails, requiring a few conversion shenanigans when making those. not hugely important, but would be nice to have.

[663f00fb978baZylonBane]

Nah, Dark isn't that picky. IIRC it just needs PCM or MS-ADPCM WAVs at 11, 22, or 44 kHz, either mono or stereo.

[663f00fb97babDa9L]

For me its also quite limited what an enhanced edition could contribute with, in SS2's current state. The various mods out there for it, really does almost fix all the missing things / problems the game have had over time. SCP, SHTUP and NewDark are some of them.

However, theres a few things i would like to see:

• An actual proper working multiplayer, and even though i would encourage new players to try it for them self on the first play through, it would be nice to play with them afterwards. A warning should also be shown about this in game really
• Higher poly objects, primarily the enemies and crew members, AND they have to stay more true to the originals than rebirth ever did.
• Remade cutscenes in better quality and resolution
• A BOTM makeover would also be a nice to have

I've actually never considered the Rickenbacker to be a bad part of the game. It always made sense to me that it would be more claustrophobic because it was a military vessel, while that being said though, some of the stuff in there doesn't make sense.

[663f00fb97d4fGawain]

https://www.pcgamer.com/system-shock-2-enhanced-edition-devs-are-focused-on-multiplayer-and-mods/

[663f00fb97fccJDoran]

Nightdive CEO Stephen Kick said he wants to deliver a 'more modern' multiplayer experience

Our priority with the Enhanced Edition is to be able to deliver an updated co-op multiplayer component

Taking one of the most atmospheric, unnerving, and threatening games ever, and then bunging another player in seems very counter-productive, as far as the atmosphere goes. But either way, multiplayer doesn't interest me, and my mates would mostly prefer a fast paced multiplayer shooter than a slower paced, more thoughtful, survival game ('survival' as in limited ammunition and you can't charge in guns blazing and expect to survive for too long).

I'll still buy the updated game (unless they really mess it up, which I don't expect that they will), and I am hoping for expanded levels to explore, but for me it will remain a strictly single player game. As others have said, we don't need a newer version of SS2, the current one still looks good (functional rather than pretty, and rather bare, but that's better than being too cluttered all over), and still plays very well. I would like to see more items and individuality in the living quarters, more signs that people, actual human beings, lived there, though.

[663f00fb9810cvoodoo47]

it's basically what is requested by customers (steam, GOG, etc) - they want MP, MAC/Linux builds, console and controller stuff, steam mods/workshop, and, of course, ACHIEVEMENTS.

and if they are willing to pay extra for all that, well, free markets still kind of worked last time I've checked..

[663f00fb98222ZylonBane]

I wonder how much effort they'll expend fixing something that Irrational never wanted in the game in the first place.

Hey, maybe they'll finally get Terri to record that weapon degradation log.

[663f00fb987dbHikari]

only two things - modern multiplayer, and console ports. not seeing them touching any resources as the purists and vanilla people would rip them apart.

most FMs and mods should work (unless they change how resource loading works), but they will require updates to work fully/properly, most likely (unless they replicate the dml/mtl system 1:1 in KEX).

as mentioned earlier, the most likely scenario is that you will use the EE build for MP, and patch up with the tool and go NewDark for everything else. so virtually no change from our end.

Biggest positive I could see beyond porting to new platforms (which would itself be really great to be honest so long as converting FM and mod assets across isn't bullshit) is the fact the source is there and maliable and old limits can be reevaluated instead of 'ok how far can we press this old thing we only have half-access to?'

No seriously, depending on how this ports work shouldn't it be 'relatively' simple (read: probably still horrifyingly complicated) to nativly run it on something like the pi or other arm hardware?

Plus having engine access should allow guys like zylon (I hate you zylon, but you undoubtedly know the material and have been a fixture in the community. So respect where it is due) who knows the game inside and out to go 'guys this feature should be put in) and instead of 'oh if only-' the bright bulbs out there can go 'OK.'

Beyond that there's the fact we might get support for more modern assets which maybe would allow for a sort of 'next level' to updating assets or at least allowing those options.

[663f00fb989daicemann]

The problem there is that once you start using new models etc, then the overall look of the game changes. I think part of what makes games what they are, is in the appearance.

If it's SHTUP style offering just higher rez versions of stuff then that's completely fine, but when it looks different then that's not.

[663f00fb98b13voodoo47]

true to the original, higher res AI models will be hard to do, because once you start doing them, all their flaws will float to the surface - basically, you give a model more polys, now the texture is awful, you fix that, now all the flawed motions stick out like a sore thumb.

fun stuff.

[663f00fb98d02Hikari]

Yes but theoretically you could get smoother animations done.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, furthest thing from it since if it were you wouldn't have so many halfassed half done projects out there. I'm just saying it would be theoretially easier than now to update things.

Do wish nightwave would focus on that rather than multiplayer, but I am glad they seem to have stated a comittment to supporting fan missions.

Would be nice if something like the mod manager was made part of the core package, and the FM selector was from within the main menu much like how it is in shadowrun returns.

Other than that? The update will hopefully simply leave the door open.

I can see why nightdive is doing this too... I think. If I'm right it's simply to have a 'relatively short term' project that will get shock back in the headlines. This is the game they started with and both the shock remake and shock 3 aren't ready so they need something to keep the brand in everyone's mind beyond 'oh look, delays!'

[663f00fb99088ZylonBane]

true to the original, higher res AI models will be hard to do, because once you start doing them, all their flaws will float to the surface - basically, you give a model more polys, now the texture is awful, you fix that, now all the flawed motions stick out like a sore thumb.

I don't recall anybody complaining about that with the Rebirth models. At worst some of the death poses look goofier.

The only really bad AI animations I recall are the walk cycles for the rumblers (and monkeys?), where they very visibly snap between mirrored animations for the left foot/right foot animation.

[663f00fb994ddvoodoo47]

some Rebirth model joints are intentionally non-functional to avoid problems with death animations, where their legs would twist in crazy ways. the original models are so lowpoly that it's not really a problem, but as soon as you can recognize which part of a foot is the sole, the issues are quite apparent.

there is also some arm and wrist twisting, again, not so apparent when the fist is just a blurry stub, but as soon as you can recognize where the thumb is, you can see it quite clearly. so anyone being serious about fixing up the AI models should be prepared to work with the motions as well.

I hate

it is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

[663f00fb99866Hikari]

it is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

True enough I suppose. Much I could say but it'd either devolve into a giant pissing match or more condescending bullshit. I won't defend the guy acting like an ass. I just appreciate he is one of the more active and knowledgable members when it comes to the game and relevant projects. So while I don't like Zylon. I'd rather have him on whatever project ends up happening than not, because in my mind, it'll get done to some sort of standard that is generally agreed to be good.

[663f00fb9998aZylonBane]

Nobody cares who you do or don't like, you insignificant drama queen.

[663f00fb99a9bvoodoo47]

yes, but lets not go that way in this topic, shall we (shouldn't have poked it, shouldn't have poked it).

[663f00fb99e4aOlfred]

I tried poking at the animations once and they are generally speaking a horrible mess.
A big problem is that they are mostly motion captured and at that day and age of mocap you still had to do a thorough clean up of all the animations for them to be nice and smooth. Which apparently wasn't done at all or not to the extent to being smooth. There is a big amount of jiggle in them and also misalignments between bone joints.
So I started to experiment around with them, smoothing them out was kinda okayish for the most part, just intesively tedious. You can probably get around with writing some kind of tool that does it, but just doing all on automatic would lead to a whole bunch of other problems.
The misalignments between the bones where in some kind "fixed" (dirty hacked) with the bone grouping of the model themselves. But that leads to the problem that when you correct them in the animations you end up breaking all the models.
So you would need to address models and animations at the same time. And there isn't a nice and easy way of importing and exporting models. So I scrapped the idea of working on that.
I thought about creating a plugin for Blender to import/export mesh models but never gotten around to do it. And now with an upcoming enhanced version that probably will feature a new animation and model engine I don't see the point in still doing it when something (probably) easier to work with will come around.

[663f00fb99f9avoodoo47]

according to discord, EE is about a year away (very optimistic if you ask me, the KEX people were very busy with BloodFS until recently, so I doubt much work has been done on EE).

and I guess we also have the first negative effect of the KEX port - modders being drawn away from Dark. yeah, people creating only KEX compatible stuff is not that great.

[663f00fb9a0b4ZylonBane]

I just don't see how it can be compatible with anything but vanilla mods unless they perfectly reproduce a lot of very specific NewDark features. The material system, DMLs, subtitles, the altered MIS file format, Squirrel scripting, tons of bugfixes, etc. You'd need an upgraded DromEd as well.

[663f00fb9a201voodoo47]

yeah, SCP compatibility ain't happening. if I had to guess, they will aim for getting SHTUP-ND and ACC 400 going, so they will have to either code in mtl compatibility, or create their own system that would function similarly, and provide their version of mtl files that would make the mods work as intended. there are about 20 mtl variables, I'm not a coder, but that looks doable. managing that would get them 8/10 from the current list of recommended mods, which would be considered good enough, I'd reckon.

doubt the same thing will be possible with dmls though, so minimods are out, I'd guess.

[663f00fb9a841Hikari]

As I am only at best sorta at the sidelines of what's going on, and unlike some here doesn't know Shock2 inside and out, the technical specs, limitations, etc I feel at a loss on what to do about the news of an extended/enhanced edition. What I can do is try putting my hopes and concerns on the table to see if anyone shares them or even how well grounded in reality and what we already know of the kex engine (given that is presumably what nightdive will use.)

Concerns:
* That we will have a forking between NewDark and EE iterations with major deviations in what each will support. I know NightDive has tried contacting NewDark's author with no success. Given they have the full source of the original game I can understand why they wish to go forward anyway, but there is that concern that anyone modding (what few people there are) will have to pick one or the other.

* That this is going to be played up in the media and community but there will only be, maybe charitably, five guys on this project and their hair is on fire the majority of the time. This is because Shock Remake is threeish years post kickstarter and that's still not done, there are other projects and obligations the studio has to take on, and what might have seemd at first to be a slam dunk is going to be a quagmire hellscape they're bogged down in.

* That even if the absolute utter best case scenerio happens and we the community get everything we could ever want on a silver platter.... people will still bitch, loudly and in a way tht nightdive takes personally. More to the point I know people will complain. They're already complaining. I'm just concerned we as a group will be seen as unpleasable fucksticks.

* DRM Hell. This one is very doubtful given NightDive's history, but 'oh hey shin y thing is now destroyed because of some kind of douchfuckery that got forced in' is always a concern.

* That it won't actually happen. All this sound and noise and... then ultimately Nothing because the resources evaporated.

Thus my major concerns at this stage. I figure get the big negatives out of the way. On with something more positive. Feel free to reality check me guys because I only have very dim memories of even attempting SS2 multiplayer and those... were not good.

* Is there any objection/obstacle to integrating Shock Texture and the other object/level asset retexturing projects to be bundled with. Having a 'vanilla mode' with all original low res textures, and an 'enhanced mode' with the community texture packs all applied as a single ticbox. Would anyone who's had a hand in those projects have objection to this? What's the legality here even if everyone's kosher? Pessimistically I'm betting a few people won't be kosher with this but 'I'm making a wish list.'
        Zylon I know you're a big part of shock texture. Thoughts on where this one falls apart? Intent here is purely 'This is seen as one of those core mods that everything sits on' in my mind.

* Being able to have player A be on one level, B on another, and C somewhere else and the game not collapse.
      As an addendum it would be nice if say player A goes to grab the fluidics override widget while player B clears out until the fluidics control panel. As soon as A gets the override inserted, B can hit the button to purge the coolant tubes. C and D can then each go to a nacelle to turn them back on as A and B go on to other tasks.  Just to use the original campaign as an example.

*  Support for more modern animation and modeling standards since that would open the door to more faithful to the originals replacement assets either by nightdive themselves or by fans.

* The ability to put things back into the crates. That way instead of 'oh hey I'm going to dump everythning on the floor' player A can go 'hey C I left a modified shotgun for you in the crates beside the ops elevator' or player B can go 'Hey A, here's a researched item for you to scan in.'

* The ability for fan mission creators to decide if players have a global pool for 'things researched' or 'logs picked up' or if they are indavidual. Tht way one mission author can go 'I want one player as a designated researcher if they are in co-op to have to actually get the now researched item to other players' or 'we'll just explain it by the information being beamed wirelessly between players this is the future.'

* Another multiplayer thing is having the choice to go 'I want t ocontinue this multiplayer session as a single player game' and the game splits off a new save file wit hall that player's info saved so they can continue, and then if they decide to pick up the multiplayer save later? They can.
     In the same vein if players disconnect I'd the local game to go 'player's B and C have left the game. do you wish to continue?'

* Would love if an equivalent of blues' mod manager was integrated alongside integrating the fan mission selector into the main menu itself. Think how shadowrun return allows you to do fan campaign selection from the main menue rather than having to have a 'before it lets you into the game' menu. This is partially to tidy things up, partially to allow for non desktop platforms to have a tidy way to tick things off.

* Companion to this is an easy way to load mods and missions into non-pc platforms.

Now on to the things I'm... less confident on and to me come off more as fan wanky 'while you're there doing things even though this will probably be horrifyingly complicated.' wishlist territory.

* Redone model assets. Even if its still 'low poly by modern standards' or 'just on par with rebirth's models' it's official, it's in the newer model/animation structure. Effectively 'some thing the community can use as a new baseline.'

* Redone cutscenes either as movie files, or in game rendering to me isn't as important as the fact that 'the current ones are 640x480 4:3 and anything that is done would look far nicer especially if per my above suggestion(s) are used and improved assets are made part of the 'baseline' enhanced edition game.

* Please for the love of SHODAN play through system shock infinite. Might not be everyone's cup of tea but even gutting the plotline? That mod's final level and final shodan fight is lightyears ahead of what shipped with the base game in terms of quality and fun factor. What shipped with the original game shows where things just... fell flat on budget and time.

* Any chance at putting a few easter eggs in to give a nod to the more prominent community members (Zylon, Koyla, etc) for their contributions over the years?

[663f00fb9aa3dNameless Voice]

"So what's enhanced about this new Enhanced Edition?"
"Well, a lot of mods don't work."

[663f00fb9ab79voodoo47]

weeell, not supporting dmls and other advanced stuff would mean some 20% of mods available here not working (checked the numbers quickly). a lot of people will trade that for MP and the rest of the EE features, I bet - especially if the KEX people can get SHTUP-ND and ACC 400 running in some way as I've mentioned.

it's almost certain there will be tradeoffs, and one will have to choose the version which suits them best according to the feature set.

basically, MP and basic visual mods vs low system requirements and advanced mods, if I had to take a guess.

[663f00fb9b494voodoo47]

my hopes and concerns

I can answer a couple of those.

- yes, a split of some sort is inevitable. mods will have to be checked for compatibility with both versions, this will be trivial for some mods, but not so much for others. will depend on the future modder whether they want to put in the extra effort, so yeah, KEX exclusive mods may happen.
- it's been mentioned that SSR people and KEX people aren't the same, so KEX projects won't draw manpower from SSR.
- generally speaking, we don't have much problem with mods being available via other channels, as long as it's obvious they are community mods and proper credits are given. so an "activate community mods" switch would be ok, silently sticking the models and textures into the resource archives and getting rid of the readmes, not so much.
- integrating the FM and mod loaders into the game menu shouldn't be a big deal, they've already done it for SS1EESP. all they need to do is keep the functionality identical (separate loading for FMs and mods, and the priority logic).