Citadel - System Shock Fan Remake

[6634e1ff08846JosiahJack]

Happy 20th Anniversary System Shock!

I am pleased to reveal on this day my faithful remake Citadel.  Check it out: http://www.indiedb.com/games/citadel
https://github.com/JosiahJack/Citadel/

Progress has been remarkably swift, having only started the project on July 7 of this year, here a little over 2 months later I am proud to show you what I have done so far and I can say with confidence that Citadel will be the System Shock remake.

Happy anniversary everyone!

[6634e1ff08aacBriareos H]

Very cool. If you manage to implement all of the mechanics and get the feel right, I can see this being a viable alternative for newcomers to discover the original game. And coop play would be pretty fun, too.

Do you intend to keep the interface and player movement as close to System Shock as possible? How is cyberspace going?

[6634e1ff08c67voodoo47]

this would be great, but I'm concerned about the legal stuff - you should probably require original data files for this to work to be safe..ish.

also, you will probably need to edit your posts here sooner or later,  so do consider registering.

[6634e1ff08dc4Kolya]

We're distributing the original game for free and he should require original data files?

What's the engine?

[6634e1ff08eb4Judicator]

This is great news. Many thanks JosiahJack.
I kept wondering why no one thought about using DP for a project like this.
Keep on.

[6634e1ff0926evoodoo47]

We're distributing the original game for free and he should require original data files?

just precautions. remember System Shock Rebooted. also, he is probably going to need the orig audio anyway.

[6634e1ff09399WhyNott]

I have a bad feeling about this

either way, good luck

[6634e1ff0951aJosiahJack]

Thank you. I do hope that this can be as good as the original.

For the potential legal issues, Meadowbrook Insurance is now both the rights holder and the copyright owner of the name System Shock as of May this year. I have reviewed the legality of releasing System Shock Portable and will release Citadel in a similar manner. If Meadowbrook has any objections or wants to "cash in" on the name then I am all willing to negotiate something with them as regards a possible Steam release which is uncertain at the moment though it is being considered. Unless or until then Citadel shall proceed without pause regardless of any legal proceedings.  I want to assure you that now is definitely the time for this project to succeed.

[6634e1ff09864Ndrake]

Thank you. I do hope that this can be as good as the original.
I have reviewed the legality of releasing System Shock Portable and will release Citadel in a similar manner.

I'm curious as to what your findings were on this.

Unlike SSP there's real money in a possible remake. I'd be very careful about floating the idea of releasing this commercially. No one is just going to hand this name over to an indie dev. Cool project though!

[6634e1ff099b3WhyNott]

If you want my suggestion, I would recommend scraping classic Source viewmodels in favor of an "immersive first-person"  like view. This would actually be closer in effect to how it worked in original SS, and since your game seems to be using the Source engine, it would actually be pretty simple to code it thanks to existing tutorials.

[6634e1ff09b78JosiahJack]

your game seems to be using the Source engine

Nope.  It's the Quake engine.  Specifically, DarkPlaces.  The similarities between Source and Quake are numerous due to the fact that the Source engine is based on the Quake engine.  See: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Quake_-_family_tree.svg/640px-Quake_-_family_tree.svg.png

I'm curious as to what your findings were on this.

EA no longer holds the copyright.

Unlike SSP there's real money in a possible remake.

My market research (if you can call it that) as of yet doesn't support this claim.  There isn't any financial plan for Citadel anyways.  I hope I didn't give that impression in my previous post.

[6634e1ff09e56Zygo]

I'm curious as to what your findings were on this.

You can easily check USPTO and the copyright DB for games' information. TLDR is that EA (Origin) held copyright on SS1 until 1994, the CD version was LGT (later LGS; via transferral, probably thanks to Warren Spector) then Star Insurance (along with the FUs) claimed it from 2010. The trademark was EA's but lapsed and the current filing is Meadowbrook's from 2011, though it is still provisional according to its listing. Short story is that Meadowbrook/ Star own everything, so far as can be determined.

[6634e1ff0a1e5Ndrake]

Interesting thanks.
So do I get this right everything that would be required to make an official reboot/sequel is split between two unaffiliated insurance companies?
And can we assume that copyright/trademark are just filed away somewhere and no one working for them really knows if these are assets worth protecting?

My market research (if you can call it that) as of yet doesn't support this claim.  There isn't any financial plan for Citadel anyways.  I hope I didn't give that impression in my previous post.

Yeah I didn't mean to imply  that this was your plan. I was thinking more along the lines of that the subtle difference between the "System Shock" and say the "Tomb Raider" franchise might be lost on some insurance lawyer. Someone might get the idea of "cashing in" on "System Shock" AAA-style and therefore feel the need to kill your project.

[6634e1ff0a3c4JosiahJack]

Yes the current trademark / copyright holder is an insurance company...most important though is that they are both owned by Meadowbrook Insurance Group.  Since this project is not named "System Shock", but rather "Citadel", then I believe this project is safe from legal action.

Legal
========
No claim is made to the right to use “System Shock”.  "System Shock" is the property of the respective rightsholder and any use thereof is in reference.

System Shock Portable is the project I would worry about if I were you.

Anyways, on to more cheerful things. In other news, progress continues and the medical level is shaping up quite nicely with roughly 80% of the level geometry blocked in.  Code for the weapon system is making progress too.  Weapon cycling is in the works though will be mapped to different keys than TAB.  TAB is reserved for inventory mode. The inventory is toggled like in SS2, or SS1 with the mouselook mod.

[6634e1ff0a4ddCarrot]

This is very interesting, I wish you the best of luck!

Just out of curiousity: are you using, or considering using, Hank's map importer?  It seems like even if it was still a work in progress that it could save you some time overall.

[6634e1ff0a6f0Join2]

Good luck, Josiah Jack. Try not to lose your sanity.

If there's money involved I want in. Modding/making highly complex games without pay is for crazy people. However, I doubt this will be the case, there will be no money.

Keep that passion burning, and I hope you find people to help out.

I must admit I'm disappointed with the engine choice, I mean there's not much evolution from 1994-1996 at all, but I do recognize you're using a modified version of the engine.

[6634e1ff0a8f9voodoo47]

that's why I'm saying, requiring the original datafiles is always a good idea - generally, a piece of software that allows the owners of the original game to play it better is left alone (source ports of old games, but also TFix, TafferPatcher and similar), while fan remakes of popular games are a frequent target of C&D letters (System Shock Rebooted, Chrono Resurrection, can't remember more off the top of my head, but pretty sure there are plenty). there are exceptions (Open General), but they are few and far between, and usually only exist because the rights owner is very, very dead (SSI, may you rest in peace).

and of course, if they decide they really, really want to toast your project, then they will, because in this world, the more money you have, the more right you are.

and about DPQuake - if I remember correctly, the engine is well understood, multiplatform, open source, and easy on hardware, so if it supports everything required to get all the gears of Citadel station turning again, I really see no problem.

[6634e1ff0ab88Judicator]

DarkPLaces is powerful and feature rich guys.
If you don't know it take a look here: 

http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/readme.html#GraphicsFeatures
http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/screenshots.html

LordHavoc still keeps improving it and the Quake community is huge and generally full of helpful people.
Honestly I'm happy with DP, I have Quake + DarkPlaces installed from years and every now and then I fire it up and enjoy some old time FPS fragging.
The game is gorgeus and higly tweakable if you want to use high res textures and new models a beefy PC is needed.

[6634e1ff0ad60ZylonBane]

One of the more challenging aspects of remaking SS1 would be coding all the UI screens, and doing it in a resolution-independent manner. More modern engines, like Source, have native support for that sort of thing.

[6634e1ff0aea7Valet2]

I think this legal shit is not we should worry about. You can just make a re-make without using names Shodan, Citadel, and with some FourOp logo, and when the work is done, release "unofficial, just found it on the web" patch to restore the names and logos.

The more important is to make that damn remake. Because there were many, many of them since I remember myself. And nothing has gone beyond the first level geometry.

[6634e1ff0affcvoodoo47]

yes, but not getting shot down less than ten days after the announcement is also important, and as mentioned before, by doing things in a certain way, the risk can be minimized.

anyway, time to steer the discussion back to the remake - how true to original is it aiming to be? are all the wonderful oldschool hud and inventory elements going to be preserved? what about the physics, any changes planned? for example, I could live without the bounciness and tumbliness of the player, same goes for the weird mantling system and jumping, which are really clunky and sometimes outright annoying. a more SS2esque control scheme would be nice.

[6634e1ff0b3c5Zygo]

Interesting thanks.
So do I get this right everything that would be required to make an official reboot/sequel is split between two unaffiliated insurance companies?

Star and Meadowbrook are actually the same company, Star is a subdivision of Meadowbrook.

Though the copyright for SS2 actually does have another claim from Comerica Bank as well as from Star/ Meadowbrook, which would complicate matters if it has not been resolved. I'd presume it has though.

In any case, the worst sanction a not for profit use is likely to get is a Cease and Desist. And if they're not selling SS1 I can't see why they'd bother even with that.

[6634e1ff0b68aNdrake]

And if they're not selling SS1 I can't see why they'd bother even with that.

I don't think EA was still selling SS2 in 2004, that didn't stop them.

@JosiahJack I honestly wish you the best of luck! I really don't want to discourage you. Just be careful an listen to what voodoo47 has to say, he knows what he's talking about.

[6634e1ff0b99cOlfred]

It doesn't matter if they still sell it or not. With US law it's in a way that you always have to defend your copyrights no matter what. Otherwise when it really comes to protecting your copyright some lawyer can go on and say "yeah, but that one time you didn't cared about protecting it, so you kinda said it was free for everyone to infringe your copyright".

Everyone should already know that the US law system is kinda bonkers, it's really like that.
So even if you are not making any money with a remake there might still be a possibility for them to shut you down. But I doubt that they even go checking for anything like that.