Things SS1 and SS2 got Wrong

[664a423eb09d5Marnetmar]

Probably not a good idea for a first thread, but I thought it'd make for some interesting discussion.

What are some things you think should have been different about the System Shock series? As much as I love both games, my main gripes are:

SS1

-I think we can all agree that the controls were pretty awful before you got the hang of them, but it was 1994 and FPS-RPGs weren't much of a thing yet.

-The dynamic music didn't work that well, cyberspace suffers from this issue the worst.

-The invisible mutants. I don't think I need to go into detail here.

-The soundtrack definitely wasn't composed with most sound cards of the day in mind and very few synthesizers actually manage to do it justice.

-The way you obtained the reactor code at the end of the game was clever, but a bit of a pain in the ass, at least on my first playthrough.

SS2

-Giving Shodan a physical, human-like form at the end took away from her sense of mysterious omnipotence, in my opinion, and the "lover" bit was downright awful.

-The game wasn't very good at simply leaving some things unknown and up to the imagination, which is pretty much a requirement if your goal is to be scary.

-I would have liked to have seen more SS1-like cyberspace environments, since the ones in game were regular physical environments with funky textures. I wouldn't have wanted the absurdly difficult controls to return, though.

-It'd have been nice if Shodan's memories of Citadel Station at the end of the game were updated to match the rest of the game's fidelity, as copying the textures and architecture straight out of SS1 made the level seem ridiculously out-of-place.

-Having played System Shock 1, Shodan seemed a little underwhelming because I already knew she was going to turn against you sooner or later. Plus, she felt really detached and distant. It'd be nice if she really messed with the player and projected herself on computer screens all over the place like in SS1 to enhance the sense that she was truly everywhere and watching your every move, and you truly were her slave doing what she says against your will.

-I didn't like the way she manifested herself on-screen with physical wires and tubes. She'd seem less human and more foreboding as visual noise that gradually morphed into her face akin to SS1's approach:

Image: http://i.imgur.com/xYw9RdF.jpg

In addition, her face seemed a bit too stoic to really be scary, I think, again more akin to SS1, she should have had more of a freaky grin as so, only reverting to her more stoic expression if you really did something to piss her off:

Image: http://hdwpics.com/images/2852D021B7A9/Fear-Factory-The-Industrialist-System-Shock-1.jpg

-The concept of the many, even though they were scary and their origin made canon sense, still seemed really shoehorned in. In addition, BOTM was a horribly designed level.

-The soundtrack was good but left much to be desired IMO.

With all that said, I'll cut SS2 some slack since it had a really troubled development.

[664a423eb10e1voodoo47]

in my opinion

yes.

[664a423eb120fcomcast123]

I agree with you with the invisible mutants. It's a waste of bullets and patches.

[664a423eb148bMarnetmar]

yes.

That's...the entire point. I'm asking what people's opinions are.

[664a423eb166bvoodoo47]

well, the first thing is pretty much a fact - SS1 controls are immature (a trait shared by many early 3D games), and the game benefits immensely from the mouselook mod (which brings the control scheme quite close to what SS2 has). while purists may disagree, making the player fight the controls is a bad thing to do, no exception.

same goes for the last part of the second game being rushed - when you look at the last few levels in the editor, it's pretty obvious that more stuff was planned for Rickenbacker and Body of the Many than what we've got in the end.

the rest are indeed, opinions, meaning they can't really be right or wrong, but I can tell you that yours are not shared by many.

[664a423eb1837ZylonBane]

Invisible mutants were awesome. They were supposed to terrify the player, and they did.

[664a423eb1a47Al_B]

The mutants kept the third level tense - even after you've been through it a few times.  There weren't many other areas that had the same impact (arguably the groves also did it well).

The controls didn't bother me in game when I first played it as I'd played the Underworld games prior to it and was used to the mouse navigation scheme.  However, cyberspace navigation / combat was horrible and I toned down the level of cyberspace difficulty for my first playthrough.  I haven't had the same dislike of it when I've played it more recently but at the time I definitely thought it was done awkwardly.

[664a423eb1c33Briareos H]

I never really saw anything wrong with the base controls in SS1 but I agree that cyberspace was awkward, some parts of it felt unfinished and it was a completely different game to control. I wish more had been done with it and better integrated into the main game. I also agree that whatever sound device I used, the music never sounded exactly right, as if it had been made for a different synthesizer, especially on a slow PC with hiccups and slowdowns.
One other issue is that not all graphics were equally well done, although they didn't bother me, invisible mutants and zero-G mutants were not pretty to look at; hoppers were a bit ridiculous, too.

That said, SS1 remains my one and only, almost-perfect game.

[664a423eb1e45icemann]

For SS1 you've got to remember that back then, bad controls in games were the norm. Try playing Mechwarrior 2 after all this time and try adjusting to it's controls, then come and complain to me about SS1 :p.

I find I usually adapt to SS1's style after about 10 minutes.

Even SS2's style takes some getting used to, of having to open up the cyber interface and all that. I never had an issue with the invisible mutants either. Their much like the specters in Doom. Fully intended to be super hard to see, and scare the player.

I completely agree on cyberspace in SS2 though. That was one area that REALLY needed some expansion. Game really could have used the addition of several additional cyberspace sections.

[664a423eb231dMarvin]

The SS1 controls take some time getting used to, more so if you haven't played any games of that era, but nowadays I prefer them to the mouselook mod, probably because the mod doesn't work as well as the native solution in SS2 which is the best among all three control schemes.

There's almost nothing I don't like about SS1 which cannot be traced back to its age. Voice acting could be a lot better (it's just the dev team, obviously no one would do such a thing today), level design is too labyrinthine (even considering the limited space of Citadel station) or "gamey" (level 3 maintenance tunnels, bridge) at times and the weapons could look a lot better in 1st person. There was nothing even close to a blueprint for such a game, so all of that is more or less forgivable. RPG-like progression as seen in SS2 would be a nice, but SS1 is already ambitious enough as it is. Oh, and the door puzzles suck.


SS2 has a crappy last quarter as everyone knows and it's a little sad to see so many features SS1 had going the way of the dodo (customizable difficulty, cyberspace, implants & gadgets, funky drug effects, in-depth weapon customization), otherwise it's brilliant. I don't really get most of the opinions in the first post. "Leaving things to the unknown" for example is something SS2 excels at thanks to its unsurpassed sound design - you almost always hear enemies before you can see them and your mind always fears most what it can't see. And the sound effects are really terrific at firing one's imagination.

[664a423eb2988ZylonBane]

Try playing Mechwarrior 2 after all this time and try adjusting to it's controls, then come and complain to me about SS1 :p.

Uh, the MW2 I played controlled really well. It had great joystick support, and even just using a mouse to aim was easy and intuitive. Of course it's not going to be as simple to control as Doom-- it is a mech sim after all.

Oh, and the door puzzles suck.

Translation: You suck at the door puzzles. The door puzzles are entirely fair logic puzzles that make perfect sense as an abstraction of poking around in the guts of a door control panel to force it open.

[664a423eb2c9aMarvin]

Translation: You suck at the door puzzles. The door puzzles are entirely fair logic puzzles that make perfect sense as an abstraction of poking around in the guts of a door control panel to force it open.

Well, first of all, you're obviously wrong, as wire patterns closely resembling the solution often don't lead to a bar oscillating closer to the end compared to a completely wrong wire placement. There are local maximums and minimums whose positions are more often than not unrelated to the placement or color of the wires and thus the global maximum, which makes the more involved puzzles with more than three wires and/or colors highly illogical and thus a frustrating exercise in patience.

[664a423eb301fOlfred]

I really liked the door puzzles/hacking in SS1 since it followed some logic. In comparison I was kinda disappointed of the semi randomly poking buttons till it works in SS2.

Oh, and control wise Steel Battalion for the Xbox is stil the best mech game, but that's for a reason.

And yeah, controls in the early days of gaming where pretty complicated compared to what's established todays. But you shouldn't forget that you have far more possibilites of controls in SS1 as to what is common today.
For SS1 they just scrambled together all possibilites which seem realistic and built it in, and than make it work somehow. Considering that the controls are quite good, people just aren't used to them.

[664a423eb32d2Marvin]

I really liked the door puzzles/hacking in SS1 since it followed some logic. In comparison I was kinda disappointed of the semi randomly poking buttons till it works in SS2.

The emphasis is on "some".

Partially random, yes, but dependent on character skill, not player skill, which isn't necessarily better but more closely resembles a RPG which is probably what Irrational was going for with design ideas such as that one.

[664a423eb364aRocketMan]

I also think the mutants were awesome.  A pain in the ass yes, but awesome.  They WERE a waste of bullets and patches, which is precisely why you needed to find the rapier as quickly as possible and use that instead.  Plus it made you have to run right up to the motherfuckers and slash them in the face.  Terrifying and satisfying.

[664a423eb3825SpAM_CAN]

I love how the station layout matches the external footprint in System Shock - but it isn't a place people could actually live in. System Shock 2 is choc-full of dorms, eateries, shops, and everything essential to life, but the layout makes very little logical sense and doesn't really follow the footprint of the Von Braun.

So much of System Shock 2 rubs me up the wrong way. The poor attempt at convincing the player to work with SHODAN, the annoying stats system - hell, the stats system alone made me hate it on the first two attempts. System Shock is practically 3D Super Metroid, while System Shock 2 is full of RPG bullshit for no real reason. SS2's logic puzzles are also pretty lacking.

One thing I never understood - why is SHODAN's "seat of power" in cyberspace situated on the Medical Deck on Citadel? Not, say, her actual seat of power aboard the bridge? Oh yeah, because most people didn't get that far into the first game.

[664a423eb3b1cZylonBane]

System Shock is practically 3D Super Metroid, while System Shock 2 is full of RPG bullshit for no real reason.

Not sure if trolling or stupid.

[664a423eb4042unn_atropos]

One thing I never understood - why is SHODAN's "seat of power" in cyberspace situated on the Medical Deck on Citadel? Not, say, her actual seat of power aboard the bridge? Oh yeah, because most people didn't get that far into the first game.

Wha...It is on the bridge. Last level. Very far away from Med Deck...

[664a423eb4398ZylonBane]

Wha...It is on the bridge. Last level. Very far away from Med Deck...

He's blathering about the SS1 Medical Deck recreation in SS2's final level.

[664a423eb448cunn_atropos]

Well, that leaves me speechless.

[664a423eb45e1voodoo47]

that makes two of us.

[664a423eb483dDjant]

Not sure if trolling or stupid.

Is it surprising that some people prefer the RPG statistic less System Shock over System Shock 2, particularly since System Shock 2's RPG statistic systems have many flaws, like the weapon skills being horrendously imbalanced and PSI powers being often too costly for anyone except a PSI focused character to use though?

[664a423eb4a77ZylonBane]

PSI powers being often too costly for anyone except a PSI focused character to use

*facepalm*

[664a423eb4baeDjant]

I thought you would know of several PSI powers that are clearly intended for other characters to use yet aren't too useful for a completely PSI focused character and still cost too much for people not choosing OSA, for example Kinetic Dampening which helps people using Standard Weapons, Anti Entropy Field which helps Exotic Weapon users, Cyber Affinity spell which helps people hacking, etc. Especially since you're a System Shock 2 veteran.