System Shock Portable taken down - what now for the future of System Shock?

[663baf2475c03JDoran]

I see that Kolya has removed SSP from it's download page (https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=211.0) due to the new copyright holders C&D order. They say "Night Dive Studios has acquired all rights to the System Shock franchise. We need to ask that you remove any links to the full games of either System Shock I or System Shock II, if you haven't already done so", which I think sounds great, since hopefully it means that GOG (or whoever) will soon be selling SS1 legally, so that those of us who never bought it when it was available can finally own it legally (even though it will probably be download only, so no nice box to show off on the shelf...).

The only problem is, I hope this doesn't spell the end of the remake, Citadel, which looks amazing.

BTW, Kolya, I agree with Night Drive Studios, re: " If you were to offer just a patch that installed those mods, I am sure that we could figure out a way to point back to you once System Shock is released.", of course. If you could make a SSP that includes everything but the easily-copied-to-SSP game data files, then that would be a good compromise for people new to System Shock 1.

Did anyone know that Night Drive Studios were on the verge of getting the rights to the first System Shock? This is the first I've heard of it.

[663baf247695dMarvin]

I have no idea what JosiahJack is planning but all source ports or port-like projects I've known so far would at some point ask for some of the original game files. Where you get them, GOG, Steam, "other places", is your decision and should have no impact on the legality of the project itself.


Yes, Shock 1 was always on their agenda, but they focused on Shock 2 and Meadowbrook first.

[663baf2476bd7Nameless Voice]

So, you are looking forward to having to pay for something that you could get for free before?
You're looking forward to giving money to a company that have nothing to do with the original developers?

The reason that I buy games is because I want to support the developers, to pay them for their work and to encourage them to make more games that I enjoy in the future.  Not because of legality, and certainly not to support companies with no actual entitlement other than having purchased the rights to something they had no hand in creating.

[663baf2477018JDoran]

So, you are looking forward to having to pay for something that you could get for free before?
You're looking forward to giving money to a company that have nothing to do with the original developers?

The reason that I buy games is because I want to support the developers, to pay them for their work and to encourage them to make more games that I enjoy in the future.  Not because of legality, and certainly not to support companies with no actual entitlement other than having purchased the rights to something they had no hand in creating.

You make a good point (why should Night Drive Studios, or anyone else, pay n amount of pounds for the game rights, then make n x 50 pounds when they do no work on the game, and the original programmers and designers presumably get nothing (though are you sure of that? Is it possible that the original people could get a cut of the profits, even if it's not standard in these cases), I agree?), but I think it's great that the game will soon (I assume) be available for legal purchase. Yes, prior to this, it was available less than legally from this very site, but no doubt anyone who wants the game and is willing and able to use torrents or pirate sites will be able to download it with no trouble.

[663baf247725cvoodoo47]

well, the only reason why SS1 has been available here as a full download was that it was not available for purchase, and the ip owner didn't care. this has changed - the new owner plans to sell it again, and, unsurprisingly, wants legal sites to stop distributing the game in order to protect his sales. actually, even without the notice, we would have to take the download down ourselves after a GOG/Steam release - any half decent abandonware sites do that once something ceases to be abandonware.

SSP will return in some legalized form, but not before the GOG/Steam release is live.


and speaking of the release, I'm slightly concerned that they haven't contacted us about technical stuff - they definitely don't want to release without the mouselook mod, for example. not sure repeating the SS2 release mishaps is desirable.

[663baf24774b9ZylonBane]

The way I see it, this will probably result in more people playing SS1, even though it's no longer free, because it will once again be available, and advertised, from legitimate sources. Don't underestimate the number of people who would never consider SSP, either because they consider it piracy, or because they don't trust software downloaded from some random internet site (from their perspective), or simply because they don't know it exists.

As has been mentioned, hopefully an "SS1Tool" can be developed that applies all the SSP mods to whatever ends up on GOG/Steam.

[663baf24775edNameless Voice]

Yeah, I'm not generally against services like GOG and Steam selling things legally and making them much easier to acquire.  I just think that the original developers should get something.  Otherwise it's just stealing other peoples' work and selling it as your own.

[663baf2477711Marvin]

Jeez, Kolya sounds pissed ...

I get your angle, but as ZB said: Putting Shock on Steam and GOG will draw a lot more people to the System Shock universe than SSP could ever have done, and that's a good thing. If such a step filled nobody's pockets, the no one would do it on such a scale (except fans, obviously).

[663baf2477866Yankee Clipper]

What am I missing. Did the current rights holder do something underhanded to get the rights? What's wrong with the old rights holder selling their property, and why would it be bad if someone new comes along and buys it?

This game was once created by a bunch of extremely smart people in Boston who favoured individual thinking and personal skills over capitalism and following the rules.

Are individual thinking and personal skills incompatible with capitalism? What does that even mean - you can only be an individual thinker if you are a socialist and in tune with the collective?

[663baf247799cvoodoo47]

to make it very short and simple, a lot of people think it's immoral to receive (essentially free) money just because you have bought/own a piece of paper with a brand name on it.

it's a complicated thing, and certainly not all black or white.

[663baf2477b88Kolya]

@Marvin: I'm less interested in the quantity of players who follow some marketing campaign and bring their consumerist attitude of entitlement with them. Those will almost certainly be disappointed by the lack of flashy graphics, multiplayer and stability at higher resolutions. I'm more interested in the players with a genuine interest who may have something to contribute to this community.

@Yankee I don't think they are incompatible, but I do believe that you should have something to sell if you're going to ask for money. Merely using the rules to your advantage will make you seem clever only to those with the same level of imagination.

[663baf247800cMarvin]

@Marvin: I'm less interested in the quantity of players who follow some marketing campaign and bring their consumerist attitude of entitlement with them. Those will almost certainly be disappointed by the lack of flashy graphics, multiplayer and stability at higher resolutions. I'm more interested in the players with a genuine interest who may have something to contribute to this community.

So ... Steam and GOG users are all shallow idiots if they knew of SSP but decided to buy Shock on those platforms anyway? Don't you think that's a rather extreme point of view? What would you call people like me who were too young at the time and bought a used game box years later on ebay?

Again, I understand your pride about what Systemshock.org stands for but ultimately, if what matters most to you are the games, then yes, the more, the better. Sure, the moment  Shock hits Steam this site may go down and we'll get an influx of stupid posts (I'll donate, but that won't fix the second problem ) but also a large number of good folk honestly interested in System Shock.

[663baf2478133Kolya]

No, I don't think that's an extreme point of view. And this isn't about pride but about having a moral compass that isn't just a repetition of the legal/economic system du jour. Because those do change all the time, as they should.

[663baf24782e8Join2]

Well, I think it was well established that Night Dive give few moral fucks after robbing SS2Tool and selling it as their own. Maybe they won't go as far as to interfere with the promising SS1 projects underway, who knows.

GoG/Steam re-releases at least keeps old games relevant in an "official" sense, but said sense means fuck all to me these days as the vast majority of companies seem to only give a shit about the capital. 
SS.org is the legitimate continuation of mostly everything System Shock. Hopefully Night Dive will re-release SS as they are entitled to do and then move on to digging up other old games to sell, leaving this place to do its thing. Glory to the Many.

[663baf2478407Djant]

Honestly I'm more interested to know if they can make the Dark Engine code used in System Shock 2 open source, now that they have all the rights. If Night Dive actually funds a System Shock 3 that can be as good as System Shock 2 then good, but it's debatable if that will happen.

[663baf247887fRocketMan]

If Night Dive actually funds a System Shock 3 that can be as good as System Shock 2...

If hell freezes over...

[663baf247895eRocketMan]

damnit... post button error

[663baf2478a81TheRealAnubis]

I'm okay with GOG, but I'd like to try the release the community worked on.  I just found this site, and of course I'm too late..  sigh...

[663baf2478b74The Many]

 The many believes it would have had far better chances of continued survival under OtherSide Entertainment. Atleast they have many of our original creators working within them.

[663baf2478d3fYankee Clipper]

Most retail software is made because someone put up the money to hire the talent to develop and code the software. The people who actually do the grunt work of writing and coding the games we love to play just can't afford to work on a project in the hopes that it will sell and they can then get paid. They need that regular paycheck. And the people who put up the money so those checks can get written are doing something valuable. They are risking their money in the hope that they will profit and so things that would not otherwise get created do get created. This is something to be celebrated, not criticized. Just because the people that put up the money do not have the ability to write a fun game does not mean that they are to be denigrated for choosing to make a profit in that industry.

And if the people who originally put up the money decide that they would rather sell their rights to someone else, again, what is the problem. The new investor hopes to create new interest in the product and at the same time profit themselves. Everyone along the way who contributed to the game got paid at the appropriate time.

So, why are any of these people bad guys? Unless someone pulled some shady deal or cheated someone else out of what was due to them I don't get the hostility.

[663baf2478ebfCarrot]

I agree with you on most points Yankee.  However, I do think that Kolya is still a little upset with how things went with Night Dive on SS2, and rightfully so.  They should have every right to sell the ORIGINAL game, but not the rights to take anything someone else has offered for free to the public and sell it.

[663baf24792e3nemyax]

So, why are any of these people bad guys? Unless someone pulled some shady deal or cheated someone else out of what was due to them I don't get the hostility.

They are not bad guys, they're just copyright trolls. The business started to smell fishy after this self-congratulatory piece, where you're led to believe that they did all the work on the engine and that the NewDark team didn't exist.

[663baf2479560brethren]

Did GOG ever end up giving credit for the user mods installed in their SS2 release?

[663baf24796cfHikari]

Wait. So nightdive has everything. The Trademark and Everything to the whole Shock Franchise? Not just digital distribution rights?