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Topic Summary

Posted by: Kolya
« on: 30. July 2011, 10:58:34 »

You gotta be kidding me... you're seriously continuing this feud again?
Fine. Gaspalorz takes a timeout. And so will anyone else who continues to comment on that RAR issue or the people involved or just pisses me off by being an egoistical smartass.
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 30. July 2011, 09:45:34 »

Now this is cool. I didn't want to suggest it earlier, but it is definitely a good idea to make views of both boards. Or pehaps even a view of slice through the middle so you don't need to deal with nacelles and core twice (see attachment, yellow lines are alternative solutions).
A bad moderator is someone who abuses their privileges.
Or who doesn't live up to their duties.
The WinRAR demo never expires.
If something pops up a trial expiration message then it expires, even though it may not cease to function. It is also clearly stated in the license text:
Quote by WinRAR license:
2. Anyone may use this software during a test period of 40 days. Following this test period of 40 days or less, if you wish to continue to use RAR, you must purchase a license.

10. Installing and using RAR/WinRAR signifies acceptance of these terms and conditions of the license.

11. If you do not agree with the terms of this license you must remove RAR/WinRAR files from your storage devices and cease to use the product.
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 30. July 2011, 08:28:12 »

Very nice. :)
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 29. July 2011, 23:35:30 »

Updated first post with the larboard side view. https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=3007.msg29476#msg29476
While doing the outlines I planned to also make a starboard view in order to catch more details. This is still in produktion because I got confused about angles etc. Consider it a start^^
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 26. July 2011, 19:50:33 »

I'll close this thread for a while.

EDIT: Re-opened for the original topic to continue.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 26. July 2011, 19:34:10 »

Oh god just when this thread couldn't get any worse, guess who decides to start posting in it...

The use of crude language to make someone appear dumb and not actively trying to understand fully what a member is saying is not what I'd say makes a good moderator.
What makes a good moderator is someone who moderates well. A bad moderator is someone who abuses their privileges. I'm just a regular user here who only has "moderator" status so I can access certain subforums and occasionally clean up thread titles. Other than that I never touch the moderator controls.

I think he's complaining about the fact that the program needed to open up RAR files usually isn't free and that the trial version obviously doesn't last.
You are, "obviously", wrong. The WinRAR demo never expires.

Image: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7134/129144144681513610.png
Posted by: Fironkkuify
« on: 26. July 2011, 14:08:35 »

I understand you're pissed but that's not a good angle. ZylonBane was no more talking as a moderator...

Nah, I'm not pissed at all. You could also drop the word "moderator" and that statement would still retain it's meaning.
It is unfair to be treated like a dirt just because someone has a different opinion on something related to what I've said. I hope this won't happen again.

The use of crude language to make someone appear dumb and not actively trying to understand fully what a member is saying is not what I'd say makes a good moderator.  That's like when you're working retail or at a store and you're the manager.  You get a compliant about something and you tell them to "fuck off" or you hint that they're probably crazy.  Does that seem very professional?

In Kolya's case the way he pokes fun at people's logic is something more acceptable; it even causes a good laugh depending on the context. 

And besides, I think I might understand where gaspolarz is coming from.  I think he's complaining about the fact that the program needed to open up RAR files usually isn't free and that the trial version obviously doesn't last.  I dealt with this issue to but I think getting the free version of that 7z file opener might do the trick.

Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 25. July 2011, 07:48:20 »

Nah, I'm not pissed at all. You could also drop the word "moderator" and that statement would still retain it's meaning.
It is unfair to be treated like a dirt just because someone has a different opinion on something related to what I've said. I hope this won't happen again.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 24. July 2011, 21:57:21 »

I really thought PNG 24bit had been developed as a JPG replacement, useless as it is for that.
24-bit PNG was intended as a replacement for 24-bit lossless formats like BMP and TGA. In that respect it does very well, with much better compression.
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 24. July 2011, 21:48:43 »

I understand you're pissed but that's not a good angle. ZylonBane was no more talking as a moderator than I took administrative action when I posted the comic above. Also that's an internal contest that you have no vote in. :P 

You brought up your point about free software in a rather normative way (RAR = bad), although I still see no objective reason not to use RAR in the context unn_atropos used it. There's no vendor lock-in looming or some such. For most of our mods we use 7zip and frequently recommend it. But RAR is just as well for our purposes. In this situation it seems like a good idea to leave the choice up to everyone. 

ZylonBane, please relax. Some fervour is great, but calling people dumb in a packer program discussion is inappropriate and lazy. It prompts more lame arguments instead of interesting ones and gets in the way of an open and interesting discussion.

I really thought PNG 24bit had been developed as a JPG replacement, useless as it is for that. Nevertheless the transparency channel of PNG 24bit can be a legitimate reason to use them in a web context. Or a flat coloured image with more than 256 colours, if there is such a thing. It would seem odd to develop an archive format under the name PNG.
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 24. July 2011, 17:03:03 »

A quick side-view of the soldiers ship. The bridge is on larboard here. Does it look like something you had in mind?
Yes, this looks good, especially that you've included the ship's hull outline. I think, however, that windows shouldn't be drawn to prevent confusion ("why is there a hole through the bridge?"). You could also put some markers indicating means of vertical transport, eg. wheter it is a ladder, gravshaft, lift or bottomless pit. :)

Otherwise I'm going to continue mocking you for being dumb.
While I agree on the PNG/JPEG part, I must admit this should be nominated to some sort of "break as many as possible forum moderator responsibility rules in a single sentence" contest.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 24. July 2011, 14:01:14 »

PS. I suggest we stop arguing.
I suggest you stop throwing around "trialware! trialware! trialware!" as if it somehow makes a program less legitimate. Otherwise I'm going to continue mocking you for being dumb.

Basically 8bit is the GIF replacement and 24bit the JPG replacement.
Yes and NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. 24-bit PNG produces files that are hundreds of times larger than JPG, with almost no visual difference. 24-bit PNG should only be used for archival purposes or applications where lossless storage is required.

All those people who post game and video captures as 24-bit PNGs need face-punching.
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 23. July 2011, 22:48:34 »

@gaspalorz
A quick side-view of the soldiers ship. The bridge is on larboard here. Does it look like something you had in mind?

@Kolya
So you where all talking about the thumbs the whole time :paranoid:. Now this makes sense at last :P. Yeah for the thumbs I cropped down the files in order to stay under specific dimensions. Havn't forgotten how I crashed sbf last year^^. Tomorrow I will replace them with png (8 bit, don't worry^^).
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 23. July 2011, 12:54:45 »

@gaspalorz: Yeah, there are possibilities to do animation with PNG variations. APNG has some support but neither MNG nor APNG are supported by a whole lot of browsers/apps.
Related: An APNG of recDeck - https://www.systemshock.org/amb/ :awesome:

@unn_atropos: In Photoshop use the save-for-web function. You can select PNG 8bit or PNG 24bit there. See my explaantion above for the differences. Basically 8bit is the GIF replacement and 24bit the JPG replacement. Of course both can be used to save your blueprints but 8bit is appropriate in this case.

In your RAR archive you already saved the files as PNG (24bit). We're talking about the thumbs above. Although 8bit PNG should be used for the full maps in the RAR archive as well.
None of this is related to RAR compression - just saying.
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 23. July 2011, 12:49:47 »

Confusion rises^^
In a test I saved the map the normal way (save as png), which doesn't give me any further options.
Then I saved it as a 8 bit png with the save-for-web function.
By comparing this two files I can't see a damn difference (except for different file size in kb terms).
I also can't find visble artifacts in my .rar files. I'm clueless :paranoid:

For the side-view: I will have a look at it. Next time in this theatre^^
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 23. July 2011, 12:31:03 »

Yes, GIF is lossy, but it's compression procedure (LZW) isn't :). It's also worth mentioning that palettization is done only once (or not at all if you create the indexed bimap from scratch), while JPEG's quantization step is always applied on every image save so consequentive reading and writing causes its quality to decrease. For lineart, etc. it may be seen just after one (initial) saving.
Same for PNG 8bit which is meant to replace GIFs (although its specification lacks the ever so popular animation feature).
I was aware of MNG, but not APNG O_o
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 23. July 2011, 08:55:19 »

GIF is also lossy if the original image has more than 256 colours. Same for PNG 8bit which is meant to replace GIFs (although its specification lacks the ever so popular animation feature). GIF and PNG 8bit can both have one colour used for transparency, which produces hard edges on transparent areas.
GIF or PNG 8bit should be used for lineart, clipart, old-school comics, basically everything that contains flat-coloured shapes.

PNG 24bit is meant to replace JPGs. It is indeed lossless and additionally has a whole separate channel dedicated to transparency. So its edges to transparent areas are smooth. Like JPG it should be used for photos and anything textured. PNG 24bit images will be somewhat bigger than a JPG because JPG is lossy. So in some contexts (eg the web) where small image sizes are priority, JPG is still the format of choice.

Since your blueprints are lineart with less than 256 colours, saving them as GIF or PNG 8bit will be lossless and produce visually better results (without JPG artefacts) at similar file sizes.
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 23. July 2011, 06:45:06 »

It's the use of "compression" term confusing. Generally, compression is ALWAYS lossless since its purpose is to decrease the data length and later restore it to original shape and meaning. GIF, PNG, JPEG, etc have all lossless image compression. However, before this compression occurs, JPEG does a frequency-domain quantization, with the "quality" parameter denoting how many components are removed (how much information is being cut out). You get a significant drop in file size but it may introduce artifacts which become more visible on images where most of the information is stored in contrasting lines (sketches, etc) rather than in textures (photos, etc), even with quality 100%. There is lossless-JPEG, though, but I can't speak for it.
What kind of detail could be added in a side-view? Higher resolution, yeah...but what else?
A lot! It gives viewers/players completely new perspective to look at the map (rather than "here be deck D"). And since Minstrel is monolithic and actually shaped like a starship, I think it is worth trying.
*snip*
Hey, if you notice I took that term in qoutes, you'll see it is used just to mimic your pondering about things like it being commercial and developed for 15 years -  things that do not change the fact the product is distributed as trialware. You probably meant with that it is not some bullshit program written by certain person to make quick buck off it, but a complete package supported by a company for over a decade that is worth the money you pay for it; still, the point was about trialware (and patented algorithms) in general, not about commercial status of programs and their quality.

PS. I suggest we stop arguing.
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 22. July 2011, 23:28:07 »

By the way, you should really use GIF or PNG compression.
I'm a bit confused now, because I always considered png to be an non-loss format. When I compare my psd file with the png file, I can see no difference. So, does Photoshop have the ability to create compressed png and what's the benefit?

Could you try to do a side-view map? Just like the original but with more detail.
What kind of detail could be added in a side-view? Higher resolution, yeah...but what else?

Maybe my stupid questions can be explained due to the late hour of the day^^ (CET)
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 22. July 2011, 22:10:24 »

How is "trialware program" different from "full commercial trialware product"? Is it more or less "trialwarey"?
Since you just made up one of those terms, any difference or lack of difference exists entirely in your own head.

Let's see if I can think like you: System Shock 2 has a demo. Therefore SS2 is "demoware". Oh ick!
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 22. July 2011, 19:15:40 »

Image: http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o173/BMD2/cheerup.gif
[flash=478,25]http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/26zn5PCuSTI&rel=0&showinfo=0&fs=1&iv_load_policy=3[/flash]
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 22. July 2011, 15:42:39 »

How is "trialware program" different from "full commercial trialware product"? Is it more or less "trialwarey"? Seriously.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use proprietary software (especially if it suits their needs or they feel safe with it), just that I believe free software should be supported first as it has no commercial backup. It is also easier (and safer) to implement non-patented routines in your FOSS programs rather than to deal with legal issues. GIF and LZW algorithm is a nice example.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 22. July 2011, 14:10:42 »

I mean "bad" equals to "why use proprietary archive formats (creatable only by trialware programs)...
What the fuck. RAR archives are creatable by a full commercial product that's been in development for 15 years, which happens to also be available as a trialware version. Furthermore, several other programs are capable of decoding RAR archives.
Posted by: Enchantermon
« on: 22. July 2011, 13:17:10 »

Because people are allowed to do whatever they want. :P
As long as you're not forced to buy a program to unpack the archive, I don't see a problem with it.
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 22. July 2011, 09:20:49 »

I mean "bad" equals to "why use proprietary archive formats (creatable only by trialware programs) if there are free alternatives that can do the same (or perhaps better) job without side effects?" This generally applies to any piece of software.
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 22. July 2011, 08:05:06 »

What's bad about RAR archives now?
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 22. July 2011, 07:13:43 »

 :thumbwink:
By the way, you should really use GIF or PNG compression.
Also, RAR = bad.

Could you try to do a side-view map? Just like the original but with more detail.
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 21. July 2011, 22:19:33 »

Well I like them for their sinister tech appeal. Also they look great in the cat litter box. :)
By the way, you should really use GIF or PNG compression.
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 21. July 2011, 20:36:31 »

Here you go. The Minstrel in all ist beauty^^
I tested a new "system" of links here. Blue arrows show connections to other decks, combined wheter the deck is over oder under the current one. Orange letters numbers indicate normal up/down business. Hope someone likes this :P
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 20. July 2011, 22:25:49 »

D Deck Thumb, of course.
Posted by: Kolya
« on: 20. July 2011, 19:20:08 »

Looks like a fish... No wait, it's a microchip! Possibly from a wii controller.
Posted by: gaspalorz
« on: 20. July 2011, 13:05:21 »

Are you going to do other decks too?
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 20. July 2011, 11:02:57 »

Tags: °blueprint°minstrel°map
Let's play a stupid game. What is this? :paranoid:
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