Lonely Shock

[665bb014000a5ZylonBane]

Consider this thread a placeholder and reminder for something that I don't have time to work on right now.

One of SS2's greatest strengths is the sense of isolation it creates in players. But this is directly undermined by Polito, SHODAN, and the Many constantly jabbering in your ear. Kind of hard to feel alone when there are multiple parties watching and commenting on everything you do.

So I was thinking it would be interesting to create a mod that:

• Removes all Polito/SHODAN dialog except the absolute minimum required to assign major quests.
• Removes all but a couple of the Many messages.
• Removes all the "transmitted" cybermodules and replaces them with in-world CMs that you gain access to by progressing the plot.

I've long considered SS2 to be a bit excessively hand-holdy even for new players, but my specific inspiration for this idea is Soma, which I've been fangirling over recently. Like SS2, Soma features a protagonist teamed up with an AI who doles out guidance and exposition. Unlike SS2, in Soma the AI isn't omnipresent. It can only speak to the player at discrete points in the game, so for most of it the player is completely on his own, forced to figure out every puzzle and path forward without any guidance. This is occasionally frustrating, but worth it for the atmosphere of oppressive isolation it helps create. So I'd like to see how well this approach would work in SS2.

[665bb014002f2Chandlermaki]

I’d actually REALLY like to see this, especially as someone who has finished the game countless times.

Hearing the same 2-3 messages about CMs gets very, very grating after a certain point.

[665bb01400653dertseha]

I like that pitch.
One of the reasons I like SHODAN in SS1 more than in SS2 is because of her assist/handholding throughout SS2. In SS1 she's truly antagonistic, but in SS2, your character is more like a puppet.

[665bb0140091bunn_atropos]

Interesting. I would very much like to see/play this!!

If you are placing all cybermodules in the map, maybe there is also a way to have another method of communication. Like "telephone booths", psa system or the player has to hook/hack into a comm line.

Name suggestion: Shocking_Isolation

[665bb01400c09sarge945]

Your suggestion surprises me!

Transmitting cybernetic modules

[665bb01400d58JDoran]

This is an interesting idea. If you (or anyone else) makes such a mod, I will definitely be keen to play it.

[665bb01400eeetiphares4]

this is a brilliant idea, i already like the loneliness & isolation in (super) metroid for example..

it will boost ss2's atmosphere by magnitudes i think.

any concrete ideas so far as to which shodan/polito/the many dialogues are a must to be kept in?..

[665bb014010afKolya]

I think for most people there is a relationship going on between the player and Polito/Shodan that is at the heart of this game. The fact that she's watching you and commenting on your actions in an increasingly patronizing manner, that descends into an abusive relationship after her reveal, creates so much resentment and distrust, until you're more than ready to kill this evil mother.

But this is an interesting variation for a veteran player who is a bit tired of the game's story, to engage their imagination.

[665bb014011a0sarge945]

This combined with random elements such as moving quest items around could revitalise and reinvigorate the exploration of the game for veteran players

[665bb0140129cKolya]

Maybe at some point we should create a "Veteran Modding Guide". It would have to be a lot less normative than the Newbie Modding Guide, since veterans have different ideas about what constitute a great game+ for each one. But some suggestions might still be appreciated.

[665bb014015e7JDoran]

This combined with random elements such as moving quest items around could revitalise and reinvigorate the exploration of the game for veteran players

I would certainly like more random things in the game, including (as someone suggested in another thread) more random health in enemy NPCs, so it's more difficult to gauge how many bullets/energy/etc you will need to use to take down an enemy.

[665bb014018d8voodoo47]

more random health in enemy NPCs

Blood2 says this is not a good idea.

[665bb01401a53ZylonBane]

There's already a separate mod for that anyway.

Even the original Doom randomized weapon damage.

[665bb01401cecChandlermaki]

Blood2 says this is not a good idea.

Works pretty well in SS2. It’s one of my personal essential mods now along with the vague health bar.

[665bb01401e21voodoo47]

I guess a bit of randomization is not that bad, but what Blood2 had was way too much.

I'm basically thinking that if it's enough for you to notice and be annoyed, then it is too much, and if you don't notice, then it's too little to actually matter, so why even do it then?

[665bb01401f1eZylonBane]

Why would it be annoying?

[665bb0140205dvoodoo47]

played Blood2, yeah, not knowing whether your basic grunt enemy will go down after 2 shotgun shots or 4 definitely is annoying. wreaks havoc on ammo management.

it basically won't allow you to use any strategies to save ammo, because "aha, these guys are pretty weak, I'll switch to the pistol or melee them to save a few shotgun shells" isn't really a thing anymore.

[665bb0140211eZylonBane]

Again, that's how the original Doom was, and it didn't seem to bother people.

[665bb01402327voodoo47]

pretty sure there is no way in hell for a pinky to eat 4 shotgun shells and live.

I have to admit I'm not aware of Doom having randomized monster health/weapon damage, so if it really does, then it's quite subtle. I do know about Heretic though, where this is quite obvious, and sometimes a bit annoying - might be different for other people, but when I put a full ethereal crossbow blast right into a nitro golem's stomach, I expect the problem of its existence to get resolved. when it sometimes doesn't, I'm not too happy about it, because it breaks my flow.


//ah, I remember now - very sure the bfg damage is quite variable, depending on the distance and where the player is looking when the blob hits.

I guess if I were to make it short, then "better be careful, that guy may need one more shot to take down" = ok, and "I have no idea how many rounds will I have to spend to make him stop moving" = not great.

[665bb014024c0JossiRossi]

I really like this idea! Editing the audio clips shouldn't be too bad, but if you wanted a hand shortening/splicing logs I'd be happy to assist.

[665bb01402ba4RocketMan]

pretty sure there is no way in hell for a pinky to eat 4 shotgun shells and live.

I have to admit I'm not aware of Doom having randomized monster health/weapon damage, so if it really does, then it's quite subtle. I do know about Heretic though, where this is quite obvious, and sometimes a bit annoying - might be different for other people, but when I put a full ethereal crossbow blast right into a nitro golem's stomach, I expect the problem of its existence to get resolved. when it sometimes doesn't, I'm not too happy about it, because it breaks my flow.


//ah, I remember now - very sure the bfg damage is quite variable, depending on the distance and where the player is looking when the blob hits.

I guess if I were to make it short, then "better be careful, that guy may need one more shot to take down" = ok, and "I have no idea how many rounds will I have to spend to make him stop moving" = not great.

Doom uses an 8 bit RNG (Random Number Generator) table, nothing more than an array of 256 pre-selected and hard-coded numbers to randomize a ton of things in the game.  The array goes in the same order every time and is 100% predictable but due to how many parts of the game are constantly making RNG calls, it makes the results essentially random and unpredictable.  All the guns have a base damage, with RNG determining the multiplier applied to them.  Off the top of my head I don't know if a pinky has a 2-4 shot range with a shotgun but there are some pretty ridiculous examples of powerful guns barely scratching an enemy.  It does happen.  On the other hand so does the opposite.  It is possible for example to gib weaker enemies with guns that really shouldn't and once in a blue moon you'll see that happen.

[665bb01402dc0sarge945]

Yes but also no.

Dooms RNG is very very strange and in some ways just as busted as blood2.

The way it works is, each attack has a base damage of say, 3.

Then the game rolls a random number between 1 and 8, and multiplies it by the base damage.

For example, revenants do 10 base damage, meaning they can do from 10 to 80 damage per hit, always in increments of 10.

Revenant melee attacks do 8 base damage, meaning it does between 8 and 64 damage.

This is why taking a revenant rocket to the face can either nearly kill you, or barely leave a mark.

The reason blood2 feels like bullshit and Doom feels fun to play is because Doom largely let's you mitigate and avoid a lot of it. With the exception of hit scanners, every projectile can be relatively easily dodged, with maybe the exception of rockets and BFG tracers, which makes them so deadly.

With enough skill, you can avoid almost all damage. If you die, it's your fault. Many Doom players hate hit scanners, but luckily most do little damage and miss often.

In blood 2, on the other hand, it's very likely a large, fast moving rocket with a giant explosion radius will come down a hallway and instagib you, even when you dodge. It makes the game a frustrating rngfest.

Also, you can't instagib enemies with the pistol, shotgun, SSG or the chaingun, except in very very rare circumstances. You need to get an enemy to -their starting health in a single attack, and in many cases you need a high damage roll and you need to get them down to about 1hp. Or just use the berserk. Anything other than the player and the basic human enemies cannot be gibbed as they lack an xdeath state