"We Can Kill the Industry With Cynicism"

[665b23308950aJoin2]

Interview with Ken Levine. This is old but I haven't seen it posted here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwsjALh2vYA

-Claims of a little to no compromise approach to Bioshock: Infinite's design & execution.
-Aside from the above sentence, lots of rational talk as you'd expect.
-Subjects covered: Religion, Immersive Sim and where it stands in today's market, System Shock, Thief, Indie games, Bioshock.

He expresses passion for the Immersive Sim, and claimed to want it to be successful, to have a future. Problem is, you're not making those games anymore and haven't been for years. Bioshock, whilst undoubtedly creative...of the many core design principles that defines the Immersive Sim, few can be found in Infinite. 
Remembering all the circumstances, I really cannot hold it against him. LGS did indeed spend years producing without compromise, and they met their demise partly as a result of this.
They say dogged persistence prevails, but 10 years was a hell of a fight without adequate reward.

Something interesting to note: he believes Elizabeth is the most complex challenge he has encountered as a developer. his "Shark from Jaws". I find that interesting, because aside from animating I found her to be very shallow (and of course very scripted). But that was my experience.
Sure she was present throughout a lot of the game as an independent AI, so she would have been a lot of work, but ultimately I see her as a scripted puppet than anything of emergent intelligence/closely related to LGS-style convincing simulation.

Also, someone make a .gif out of his little jig, if it hasn't been done already. Only for the sake of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[665b23308971bxdiesp]

My only problem with Elizabeth, are the horrifying doll models of Bio Infinite. Had she looked like that cosplayer, goddamn would have she looked perfect. Other than that, I loved the story\companion and loved wasting racist americans instead of germans for one time. I believe story arcs are a trope of tv writing that bear no resemblance to reality, so if someone doesn't go through personality changes for 8 hours, it's all good to me.

NSFW http://jointhecosplaynation.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/elizabeth-04.jpg

[665b23308987fBriareos H]

NSFW?

[665b2330899c5ZylonBane]

Not really, no.

[665b23308a0c2JDoran]

I thought Elizabeth was a well designed and well used character, but ONLY BY CURRENT STANDARDS. Really, she was good compared to most characters in computer games, but not amazingly good, not "Wow, that is amazing" good.

I mean, yes, the first time you see her horrified by your actions in killing people, that is good. But only because most games lack this basic emotive scene. And in Bioshock: Infinite it's soon rendered forgettable, as Elizabeth then comes to accept your near constant murder sprees very quickly indeed. And the game fails to build Elizabeth up, as she mostly just wanders where-ever you go, throwing you things during battle, and rarely attempts to question you (when not only are you totally unknown to her, even though her life depends upon you (so in real life she'd be endlessly peppering you with questions, and be unsure if she would be safe with you), but she'd be constantly questioning you about the world (the Earth, under Columbine), and also talking about her life and experiences).

And the character you control wasn't exactly realistic - he didn't feel the need to question the two people he rowing to the light house with, or at any time when he saw them again in Columbia. He didn't even question them whenever they offered him a choice. He didn't question Elizabeth about so much that he'd have been dying to know about herself, Columbia, and Comstock. He didn't ask the immobile people (well, mannequins, for all of the A.I. they demonstrated) who were blocking his way at set points in the game to move and let him pass.

... I loved the story\companion and loved wasting racist americans instead of germans for one time. I believe story arcs are a trope of tv writing that bear no resemblance to reality, so if someone doesn't go through personality changes for 8 hours, it's all good to me.

The story of Bioshock: Infinite started out great, but went very much downhill (and the ending was terrible, terrible, drivel). And the game-play was nowhere near as good as the writing, not only was the gameplay vastly inferior to Bioshock 1 and 2, but the lack of choice in the game really hurt the re-playability. And killing people in the game mostly didn't feel right in story terms, as most people were innocent people who thought that you were a dangerous criminal. In Bioshock 1 and 2, the enemy were mostly insane drug addicts, driven mad by a combination of Adam/Eve abuse and the pherenomes pumped through the air suppy. But in Bioshock: Infinite, there's no such excuse, yet you're given no opportunity for non-lethal progress through the game, and it doesn't fit in with the paradise-like atmosphere of Columbia. And yes, I know that Columbia is built upon a foundation of racial prejudice and corruption, but many of it's inhabitants wouldn't know that, and wouldn't necessarily be evil, just ignorant and buying into the whole "Black people are inferior to whites, and were put on this Earth by God to serve white people" propaganda that was always used to justify slavery. It was utter nonsense, of course, but good people have believed even stupider things just because the government and the church said that it was true.

BIoshock: Infinite was a very disappointing game, I thought. It looked so promising in the preview videos, yet the released game was so lacking in comparison. And of course it followed the "Let's simplify things because gamers are idiots" rule by including a recharging shield and a weapon carrying limit.

Put it this way, I can play Bioshock 1 and especially B2 (I think that B2 is by far the best Bioshock game, and it's DLC, Minerva's Den is very good too),  any time. But I've only played Bioshock: Infinite through once. I did try again, but just lost interest. I probably will go through it again, to see if I do like it more the second time though. But I'm not tempted by the thought.

[665b23308a23axdiesp]

I don't buy in the belief that games are getting dumbed now, as a whole. I think it's the new gamers themselves becoming stupider.

Now, there's also the coming-to-age ritual of every new generation: one grows up with Gears of War, and three sequels later when he's got a beard and a beer gut, he realizes he's outgrown it. But that same cover system, I was loving very much when it was in Kill Switch during the PS2 age and absolutely nobody cared about that game.

Same for the playstyle of COD, I can still remember how fresh it was in COD1 when I first saw it at the gaming expo... and even then I had already loved it in Navy Seals, a single player mod for HL1 by the makers of Counterstrike. I am far more lenient toward the flaws of my toys than their users'.

[665b23308a49fVegoraptor]

I'd say most of the modern AAAs are actually being a lot dumber than their counterparts of previous times were. However, it appears that games server a different purpose now than they did a decade or two ago, they were challenging and hard enough so you could brag about it, let alone the satisfaction. Nowadays, the focus is not on skill anymore, but more on actual "shallow" fun and entertainment. Since the most profitable audience are 9-to-5 workers looking for distraction after a long, hard day of work, they mostly can't really go with that hyper challenging concept anymore, since people just don't have the nerve to work with fiddly controls and frustration anymore.
Back to the topic: I actually liked Elisabeth, since she is actually usefull and not some raw egg disguised as a human that you have to bring from A to B (I prefer this cosplay over xdiesp's though; but meh, tastes). And that ending was nothing short of epic, I always like me some hyperscience and realitybending. Burial at Sea gives you even more of that.
Have to admit, however, that Eleanor was the better fanservice daughter, more in-depth personality, not so overly naive, and she actively took part in the story.

[665b23308a909Join2]

I don't buy in the belief that games are getting dumbed now, as a whole. I think it's the new gamers themselves becoming stupider.

Believe what you wish, but just so you know it is a fact you're choosing to ignore. The gamers are becoming stupider in their approach to games as a result. It is a little like mental conditioning.

Now, there's also the coming-to-age ritual of every new generation: one grows up with Gears of War, and three sequels later when he's got a beard and a beer gut, he realizes he's outgrown it. But that same cover system, I was loving very much when it was in Kill Switch during the PS2 age and absolutely nobody cared about that game.

Nobody cared, and for good reason: it was just as bad as Gears. I played it and was horrified.

How old are you? Games designed for kids commonly used to be far more demanding than you're average AAA.

I am far more lenient toward the flaws of my toys than their users'.

That is not a good position to take as a developer of mods and/or games.

[665b23308aab6Kolya]

Ah, maybe that's too much of an absolute. I mean, modders are very different, this much I can tell. And even one modder can talk with their modder's hat on or as a gamer. And I think that's the case here.

I actually can't talk about what games are like today, because I play very selectively these days. But it seems to me there's something for everyone now and that can't be bad.

Unfortunately I couldn't watch the interview, because I just cannot believe him anymore. Doing an interview in a rest room seems like a terrible choice. What with all the background noises going on?

[665b23308ac21fox]

I don't believe his advertising claims anymore but I do like to hear Levine talk about this kind of stuff.

[665b23308b066Vae]

Believe what you wish, but just so you know it is a fact you're choosing to ignore. The gamers are becoming stupider in their approach to games as a result. It is a little like mental conditioning.

Yes...It is indeed, mental conditioning. They have been taught to follow along a relatively easy, explicit path...and as a consequence, have an underdeveloped ability for applying creative intelligence...which in time, results in a stunted mind...and an insidious affliction upon our civilization.

[665b23308b64eMarvin]

Unfortunately I couldn't watch the interview, because I just cannot believe him anymore.

I couldn't agree more.

[665b23308bb90Join2]

Remembering all the circumstances, I really cannot hold it against him. LGS did indeed spend years producing without compromise, and they met their demise partly as a result of this.
They say dogged persistence prevails, but 10 years was a hell of a fight without adequate reward.

And the mad scientists are at it again!

https://twitter.com/OtherSide_Games/status/555453137788473344

LGS 2.0 in the making. Get on the hype train.

[665b23308bd08Kolya]

Levine was at Looking Glass for only two years (1995-1997). And LG's demise had other reasons than their uncompromising attitude towards gameplay. Which didn't go unrewarded, Thief sold very well for example.

// Also: http://www.salon.com/2000/06/20/dark_glass/

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Levine was at Looking Glass for only two years (1995-1997).

Technically, yes. 1997-1999 Irrational were still LGS in spirit and mindset though (at least from what I gather from the design of SS2), plus they was working alongside LGS.

And LG's demise had other reasons than their uncompromising attitude towards gameplay.

All problems that would have likely ceased to exist had they made games with a much wider audience in mind. Either that or threw a lot of money at marketing campaigns, or at the very least gamers went hyper for LGS's games like they did with Doom (though Doom had the fact it was shareware at first on its side of course, plus embraced the community by letting anyone make maps and such, plus multiplayer).

All problems that would have likely ceased to exist had they been making big bucks each iteration of Immersive Sim.

Which didn't go unrewarded, Thief sold very well for example.

Moderately well. And Thief is less demanding than most of the others: no grid-based inventory or in-game interactive UI's of any sort, somewhat limited interactivity with the world, no RPG systems and so on. As a result of all this the controls are much simpler, of course.
Marc said Thief was meant to be smaller in scope to fund Ultima Underworld 3, if you recall from the Q&A thread.
...Just want to put it out there that I'm not saying Thief was a sellout. It was a new IP, innovative, and still a little demanding & complex. I'd personally prefer if it had deep interactivity, a grid-based interactivity etc but it is exempt from any harsh criticism of abandoning design of the old games for the above reasons. Plus not all games need those things...though they do for me to fall in love with them to the same extent as SS2 and Co.