In which Salk is wrong about respawning

[665b1054302devoodoo47]

well, that's something a 10 year old would do. any comments, Salkie?

[665b10543067eOlfred]

Now that's really pathetic, so much that I could only laugh about it.
Sorry for you join usss!.

Now I wonder if he tried to find something on me and came out without any results or actually tried to hit someone else with the same nick.

[665b1054308aaJoin2]

Bastard dropped my pride and joy from 9.6/10 to 9.5/10. I've worked on this nearly every day for 3 years and want to do more. It means a lot to me, and makes Deus Ex into something even more incredible whilst staying true to the original design. It is bad enough that most people don't take mods seriously as is and think they are only about graphics or turning dragons into Thomas the Tank Engine.

[665b1054309afvoodoo47]

can you report his post?

[665b105430aaaJoin2]

I'm unsure. Would the evidence be sufficient? And what is to stop him from just doing it again?

[665b105430c2dZylonBane]

If Salk ever played Deus Ex to completion he'd most likely hate it, since the final boss fight features loads and loads of respawning.

[665b105430f3aJDoran]

Salk's post with the rating of 3 is very unreasonable. Not the rating itself, as that's his opinion, and he's entitled to it just like he's entitled to post it on the moddb voting page, but if you (any time, any where) are going to post a rating that's very opposed to the majority of other votes, then you should make your opinion clear by posting why you think it's so bad (or so good when most others think it's bad).

There have been times when I've thought that something very poular was actually pretty bad, and vice-versa, and if I've bothered to post about it anywhere, then I've summed up my conclusion with my reasons for feeling that way.



Edit: Just realised that this post makes me look like I agree with Salk (I don't, I just agree with his right to voice his opinion). FWIW, I've not played GMDX since an earlier version (far earlier I think, I can't remember) but it was very good then, and from what I've read it's really gotten to be stellar. That said, I really do wish it added new levels (locations) and challenges, as I've played through Deus Ex so often that I know it backwards, which is why I've not played GMDX since trying it for the first couple of levels. Still, I wouldn't judge GMDX adversely for that as it was never intended to add new locations, it basically tightens up and improves the core game in a million different ways, and I will definitely play GMDX again, but I might wait until the final release.


Join usss!, there are lots of PC gamers who love mods and Deus Ex, so please don't think that your hard work will be unappreciated. DX is a classic game, and your mod improves it immensely, which is important not just in itself, but because the way the software industry is going, it will probbaly be a long time before we see an RPG/FPS game as good as Deus Ex (even today it's still my favourite PC game, and I first played it when it came out). Human Revolution was good, but not nearly as good as DX, I thought.

[665b105431039JDoran]

Sorry, double post.

[665b1054311a1Join2]

JDoran, you've misinterpreted what is going on here. Salk is not entitled to post a "review" of a mod he has not ever played with the sole intention to spite and discredit the author/work. Fair enough if I fucked his mother, I'd find it somewhat understandable. All I did was call him out (and not in a particularly offensive manner either) for his idiotic bullshit in another thread.

Anyway, at least we'll be rid of him. I'll take one for the team. I doubt he'll have the balls to return after his pathetic personality has been exposed to this degree.

[665b105431391Salk]

A rating of 3 is what I think your mod deserved.

The reason is that it altered the gameplay in such way that I was no longer playing the same game. A mod like that wouldn't have any reason to exist because it changes how the original developers intended the game to be.

That's what you and others say, right join usss!? So accept the fact that some purist might loathe your mod.

And I didn't manipulate anything. My voting is legit. There is no rule breaking.

This was only a temporary lesson in tolerance towards others' opinions. I changed the unfair vote, because that's what it was: unfair. Just like your conceit and arrogance.

[665b105431632Join2]

I am rather arrogant, I'll give you that. But for good reason: LGS were King, and their style must be adhered to and brought forward with few exceptions.

The reason is that it altered the gameplay in such way that I was no longer playing the same game. A mod like that wouldn't have any reason to exist because it changes how the original developers intended the game to be.

That's what you and others say, right join usss!?

Absolutely. Here is your lesson: It is about logical, selective purity. If I were to swap out Deus Ex's skill reward system with Human Revolution's shit or Skyrim's train to level grindhouse I'd fully expect a battalion of shit-slinging purists at my door. SS2 Respawning is one of those pure design decisions that shouldn't be removed. Tweaked or expanded upon in meaningful ways, yes. Removed, no. That's an integral system. Only remove the spawning if you're certain it can be replaced with something better, but as far as my perspective goes, there is nothing more suited to the very specific experience SS2 is.
Don't fix/remove what isn't broken. Expand upon and fix everything else.
And regardless of any of that, I would be far more accepting of your opinions on these designs had you played SS2 or GMDX. Since you had played neither, well...

And now I would threaten you with something like "you ever touch my baby again I'll sodomize you with an iron rod", but it would have no effect. Damn this long-distance communication stuff.

[665b105431e63Salk]

The reason is that it altered the gameplay in such way that I was no longer playing the same game. A mod like that wouldn't have any reason to exist because it changes how the original developers intended the game to be.

That's what you and others say, right join usss!?

Absolutely. Here is your lesson: It is about logical, selective purity.

You didn't even understand I was sarcastic. Every mod has a reason and a right to exist just like any player has the right to use it or not without being called "wrong" or "sissy" or any other demeaning word. Something that Kolya here has understood.

Remember what some people that wanted to promote what they thought was "purity" became: fanatics ready to wipe "impurity" off the face of the Earth.

...but as far as my perspective goes, there is nothing more suited to the very specific experience SS2 is.

Your perspective, Zylon Bane's perspective, voodoo 47's perspective or olfred's is not the only that matters. And neither is mine. I understand that. Do you?

Don't fix/remove what isn't broken.

Your mod makes changes to many aspects of the game that can hardly defined as "broken". But you still changed/tweaked them.  You give a  definition of what is "broken" or "imperfect" (entirely subjective) and judge everything you see using your own measure as universal standard and by divine right.

And regardless of any of that, I would be far more accepting of your opinions had you played SS2 or GMDX. Since you had played neither, well...

Fair opinion: I think infinte respawning sucks.

Unfair opinion: I am going to pass judgement on something I know nothing about.

And now I would threaten you with something like "you ever touch my baby again I'll sodomize you with an iron rod", but it would have no effect. Damn this long-distance communication stuff.

I wasn't going to keep that vote but only to provoke you (I chose GMDX and not SHTUP only because I wanted to make a point about changes to gameplay)  and invite you and others to be more tolerant respectful and avoid gratuitous offences.

I wanted a civil discussion, not a lecture disguised as one nor conceited and condescending "words of wisdom".

Said that, it ends here for me.

I won't post again, for the joy of those who believe that there is one truth and it's theirs.

You know, how they say... Opinions are like butt holes. Everyone has one but some think theirs smell good...

[665b105432163Join2]

Your perspective, Zylon Bane's perspective, voodoo 47's perspective is not the only that matters.


But you still did. There is no coherency in your words. You are, again, the one who defines what is "broken" and judge everything you see using your own measure as universal standard.

Yes. Because my perspective is very much influenced by and inline with the design concepts present in Ultima Underworld, System Shock, System shock 2, Thief, Deus Ex & Arx Fatalis. I've played all those games. I've been very much inspired by those fine pieces of interactive art. Anytime I stray from that path and over the line I usually make it optional.

This perspective seems to be shared in some form or other by the majority of the others here, which I appreciate as it is very rare. Few understand what these devs were going for, and what great potential their style still holds.

Your mod makes changes to many aspects of the game that can't be defined as "broken".

Broken and/or imperfect. Everything else is expansions.

Fair opinion: I think a game with infinte respawning sucks.

Unfair opinion: I am going to pass judgement on something I have not experienced.

Both are one and the same: premature opinions. SS2 handles spawning differently than most games.

I wanted a civil discussion, not a lecture disguised as one nor conceited and patronizing "words of wisdom".

They were words of wisdom though. Mostly from SS2 veterans who work on the game true to the original style and have done for years. The only rank higher is the original devs themselves.
You mentioned more meaningful (scripted) encounters as an alternative, of which there are actually already quite a few in the game. Perhaps more should have been added, but either way the respawning stays for a variety of reasons already explained, and the system itself creates unique and meaningful encounters through the freeform/simulated nature of it anyway.

It isn't like anyone isn't open to outside opinions/suggestions, but some can be inherently wrong, especially when they have no basis.

[665b105432836JDoran]

JDoran, you've misinterpreted what is going on here. Salk is not entitled to post a "review" of a mod he has not ever played with the sole intention to spite and discredit the author/work.

Sorry, I didn't realise. I assumed that he'd actually played the mod and voicing his opinion, albeit by a description-less (and therefore pretty unhelpful) number and nothing more. A personal attack (via a 'review' or anything else) is not right at all. If he has got a beef with you (and you can be a bit abrasive, it has to be said) then he should either rise above it, or stick to private pms/e-mails.

A rating of 3 is what I think your mod deserved.

The reason is that it altered the gameplay in such way that I was no longer playing the same game. A mod like that wouldn't have any reason to exist because it changes how the original developers intended the game to be.

It's arguable what the original developers would have wanted/made, if they'd have had the time and resources, but even if they would NEVER have added any of GMDX's features/changes, then that by itself is utterly irrelevant to the quality (or otherwise) of GMDX.

In Half-Life, for example, you cannot kill the G-Man, as the game's developers want him to be all powerful and beyond your (Gordon's, or the player's) touch, yet there are mods that allow you to kill the G-Man. Unreal Tournament's designers wanted the game to be in 3D, yet there are 2D mods for the game. And Unreal Tournament's weapons were (in the original, release version of the game) futuristic, and the game was meant to be futuristic in all aspects, yet there are mods to add modern day weapons, and to make it set in the modern day, or even the past. Mods like these, and many more, go against the original game's style or feel, but that doesn't necessarily make them better, or worse, than the orignal game, nor does it mean that the mods should not exist. They should be judged on their own quality.

BTW, how far into Deus Ex + GMXD have you actually played? I'd be interested (seriously) to read your thoughts on it.

[/quote]

[665b1054329ecGodlike]

[deleted] It's very easy to criticise for you when you have NON of your work. [deleted] Game development is difficult and complex subject, is not an easy thing to create good game or even mod. I'm still working on my total conversion on IdTech3 from about 3 years. [deleted]
  @Join usss!,
Excellent modification! Best ever made. [deleted] Thumb UP!

[Post cleaned by Kolya]

[665b105432b15voodoo47]

I think the Salk vs rest of the world discussion has reached a dead end (to summarize, Salk won't budge, the rest of the world won't budge either, and whatever Salk says has pretty much zero credibility as he has not played the games/mods yet). I'll be cleaning this up later today, and Salk is recommended to NOT start/continue this until after he has actually played the mods in question.

[665b105432c29System Shocked]

Please PUNT Salk into the next parking lot. Negate any conversations that he enters into. He's a total confrontational doofus. He takes up valuable time that can be better spent towards other more positive endeavors.

Please don't let this topic drag on, like the respawning one did  .  .  .  please  .  .  .  oh god, PLEASE !

[665b105432f36Marvin]

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/571148671290647299/BF9D07CD294CE62B135B3E9D7E14AA7AFEFB6B77/

[665b105433246ZylonBane]

He takes up valuable time that can be better spent towards other more positive endeavors.

Oh, irony, thou art a cruel mistress.

[665b105433398voodoo47]

but a mistress nevertheless. anyway, split and merged with the dedicated Salk is wrong topic, and (re)locking. Salk is welcome to annoy us again start a new discussion once he is done with his playthroughs.

[665b1054334bdvoodoo47]

also, if you don't like respawning (and especially broken respawning), then Fallout4 is probably not a game for you - it just doesn't give a shit, almost on the Neocron level.

[665b10543367eSalk]

I didn't plan on taking more of your time and attention by returning to this topic but I take the opportunity here to apologize to all that I may have offended with my behavior, in particular join usss!

I am finally playing (and reporting feedback) Deus Ex using his modification and I am very favourably impressed. The graphic overhaul that comes with it is also a feast for the eyes. I still remember what it looked like when I played it on my Voodoo graphic card a long time ago using the Glide renderer (which at the time was the best anyway).

GMDX, despite some minor problems I encountered, is definitely true and loyal to the spirit of the game just like join_usss (Cybernatic Pig/Totalitarian) promises.

There is no respwan in it (at least so far) and, while Deus Ex is not an excellent game because of it, it seems to prove that thanks to an admirable level design (again, so far... I have not finished it yet - I am playing on No Reload at Easy level) is possible to keep the players on their toes without resorting to infinite spawning.

[665b10543381avoodoo47]

that was unexpected, but certainly not unwelcome.

I really should have played it myself instead of wasting my time with F4. ah well.

[665b10543391fJoin2]

Thanks Salk.

As was discussed, the respawning suits Shock 2. Respawning isn't inherently bad, it depends on the context and implementation. It wouldn't suit Deus Ex so much but it certainly does Shock.