System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[665c80601be32Kolya]

I think Night Dive are well aware of what feature creep is by now. After all they had to restart SSR because of that.

[665c80601c057icemann]

More restarted due to it not really being System Shock 1 anymore by that point.

[665c80601c1ceendwars]

I just want HL1 style mouth animation to go along with these models. Is that too much to ask? I don't think so.

For those who don't know, HL1 style mouth animation is as simple as it gets. There is a single joint to control the mouth and audio controls this joint. Since they are already making new models, this would be perfect. And it would be just right for an Enhanced Edition.

And don't give me feature creep nonsense. This is as basic as it gets.

Labeling everything as feature creep just wouldn't do. Some basic improvements over the original such as this needs to be made.

[665c80601c367voodoo47]

that can only be answered by the coders. it can be laughably easy, but also incredibly hard. remember, no free lunches with Dark - the amount of work that went into something as simple as the laspistol glowing red when in the overcharge mode was ridiculous, for example.

[665c80601ca85endwars]

that can only be answered by the coders. it can be laughably easy, but also incredibly hard. remember, no free lunches with Dark - the amount of work that went into something as simple as the laspistol glowing red when in the overcharge mode was ridiculous, for example.

Since they have the source code and since they are porting it into kex, I feel like it should be relatively easy. HL1 did it way back in the day and I can't imagine that was the most complicated thing ever. Though to be honest, I have no idea. I suppose this is a question only ND can answer. I suppose we will see.

Heck, I feel like we should get things like bump mapping support. Remember how they added bump mapping support to the original Deus Ex using Kentie's DirectX 10 renderer?

http://kentie.net/article/d3d10drv/

If it can be done for Deus Ex just using a custom DX10 renderer, it should be possible for SS2 also. Kex engine supports it.

Now imagine subtle bump mapping on SS2.

another good argument against overdoing the humanoid AIs is that making them too detailed will make it painfully obvious that one creature type uses just a single model/texture - one of the reasons the vanilla AIs work ok is that they are sufficiently low detailed for most people's brains to not register this. so if too much detail is added to the new model/texture, making a few variations and implementing randomization would probably be necessary to offset this, and I'm not sure whether that is advisable (again, redoing things in this way would be better off left for a full remake, imho). just making sure the new face textures are messed up/mutated enough would be preferable, I think.

In SS2 most AI meshes are so low poly that they look melted (even before the events of Von Braun), so the smallest detail over the original would break that illusion, I would say it is unavoidable. HL1 models has a higher poly count than SS2 and they had multiple faces for scientist for this exact reason. (one body four different heads)

One positive side though, in SS2 they are all wearing the same uniform, so there only needs to be one body mesh for each gender. They will either need to make multiple faces, or one generic face with multiple textures.

[665c80601cbb4voodoo47]

it's pretty safe to assume that if NewDark did not add something by now, it's probably very difficult to do (the requests were plentiful).

so going by that, bump mapping and full facial animations probably wouldn't be easy.

[665c80601ce1bendwars]

voodoo47
Well, NewDark didn't support DX11 either, it is a DirectX feature. Kex engine does have a support for it. (Keep in mind, thanks to Kex engine, many things that wasn't possible before may be possible now)

Also, even if it was possible, maybe it wasn't included in NewDark because including support for mouth animation would be pointless, since original models wasn't detailed enough to support it. Not to mention, I doubt NewDark added support for everything it possibly could.

[665c80601cf50voodoo47]

well yes, the question is how much of a hybrid between KEX and Dark SS2EE actually is (pun intended).

[665c80601d11cendwars]

Well, if I had to guess, I would say it has to be a full hybrid, combining the essential features of both.

It will support DX11 regardless, since that's native to kex engine. We could also see things like dynamic lights, height mapping support and whatnot, but adding support for it is one thing, implementing it is another. Support for it should be there at least.

Long story short, even if they do not implement the most advanced DX11 features kex engine brings, support for it should be left in there regardless, so modders can fiddle around with them.

If the engine supports bump mapping natively, you can essentially batch convert existing textures to bump maps and just drop in the game folder for a subtle bump mapping effect, which would be cool. But it would be better if ND implements most basic features themselves, such as bump mapping.

On the other hand, since they have the source code to both engines, mouth animation is something NightDive needs to implement on its own and it is not something modders can do as easily. It should be relatively easier for them, since they are already remaking the models.

[665c80601d229voodoo47]

not sure whether making all lights dynamic is such a great idea - in HL: Source, the results were.. mixed.

[665c80601d36eendwars]

Well, I said support for it would be there. In HL2, F.E.A.R. and similar games, it looks good, because not all lights are dynamic. Dynamic lights are placed on some places to enhance the scene. Your baked lighting is still there, you get dynamic lighting on top of that.

Replacing all lights with dynamic lights wouldn't work anyway.

[665c80601d535endwars]

If they add mouth animation in, all those single player story mods will greatly benefit from it as well.

Please Nightdive, please do it. Enhanced Edition wouldn't be complete without it.

And I would like to bring up another thing, while Tacticool Weapon Replacements is a great mod, it doesn't cover every weapon in the game. Highpoly version of other weapons need to be made as well.

Additionally, I want to see my character holding rifle with both hands.

[665c80601d6f5Chandlermaki]

I find this weird obsession with janky mouth animation to be quite amusing, thank you!

[665c80601d876ZylonBane]

As I've already mentioned, Dark has texture-based lip sync already built in. It just needs professional-quality textures made for the relevant AIs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAyFXP-6NI

[665c80601dd29sarge945]

I just want HL1 style mouth animation to go along with these models. Is that too much to ask? I don't think so.

Do you mean something like this?

[665c80601e02aChandlermaki]

Do you mean something like this?

Really driving home the psychological horror!

I'm starting to see the benefits now! Where are my pills?

[665c80601e2f3Rickenbacker]

sarge945
That's scarier than the entire system shock series combined.

I expected something more like this:

I burst into laughter whenever I see it.

[665c80601e70fpripyatbeast]

I hope the significant color change is just temporary. There's no good reason to make the protocol droids a different color in what's supposed to be a faithful model update.

The original textures have boosted contrast levels that altered the colors to what you see in game. We haven't adjusted our textures yet, but will do so when they are in engine to ensure they don't make a significant departure from the original.

[665c80601ec9fRicky]

Colors are a bit off, but nevertheless I love how faithful this is to the original!

Are you remaking the weapon models as well? I am asking because while tacticool remade some weapon models, it doesn't replace all of them. And if you create those missing, I bet textures will look different than tacticool. Since tacticool had size limitation and you don't.

[665c80601f076sarge945]

Colors are a bit off, but nevertheless I love how faithful this is to the original!

Are you remaking the weapon models as well? I am asking because while tacticool remade some weapon models, it doesn't replace all of them. And if you create those missing, I bet textures will look different than tacticool. Since tacticool had size limitation and you don't.

Once you combine with some of the other packs on here, I think every single weapon is replaced (or at least the vast majority).

But I do wish there were more faithful recreations available. Tacticool is all around a good pack, but I think it's Pistol is too bulky compared to the original (for example) with it's sleek top etc.

[665c80601f39dRicky]

sarge945
I see your point. While it is amazing compared to the original, I always found the rifle model a bit odd. It looks like barrel isn't straight, but looking downwards instead.

While tacticool is amazing, they should be able to make better, more faithful models with higher resolution textures. They can still base it on tacticool if it makes it easier. (By fixing the issues and retexturing them.)

It is not really necessary, but they could add some simple Quake 2 style weapon animations as well. I am not sure engine would allow it but would be cool if they could

[665c80601f555Chandlermaki]

If anything needs a model overhaul, it's the exotic weapons. The EMP rifle too.

Rocketman's proliferator and worm launcher are decent, along with some of his others (especially the SFG). They don't quite match the aesthetic of Tacticool though, which despite a few small discrepancies with the original weapon designs is of high enough quality for it not to matter too much, imo, and I'm totally cool with them being included in EE. Most of the other weapon replacements are just too far from the originals to the point of being jarring if being paired together.

Animations wise, I agree the originals can be somewhat goofy looking, but I'm not too concerned about it either way.

[665c80601f9a4Marvin]

@pripyatbeast I asked this question earlier, would still be very interested in an answer. Maybe second time's the charm:

Given that the Enhanced Edition adds some new bells and whistles (one example being a Rebirth revamp if I understood correctly) and provided they are compatible with the old game or can be easily ported over to NewDark: Will Nightdive release those assets to modders for implementing them in the original game?

[665c80601fb3dValet2]

My best guess is that mod should also be taken into account:

https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=11244