The Importance of Prone, Leaning & Crouching, and a suggestion for NightDive.

[665b092aa086aJoin2]

NightDive: Don't forget the prone position/lying down.

Since the level of faithfulness is pretty high, especially in the level design, I guess this means you won't forget it. But not enough games feature it, and even Shock 2 omitted it. As much as it may seem criminal, Call of Duty/Battlefield and other modern military shooters are a rare example of something done right here. Do not take this approach:

T -- Stand
G -- Crouch
B -- Prone

But instead take this approach:

X -- crouch
X (hold) -- lie down
X (if crouched)-- stand
X (if lying down) -- get up to crouched position.
Sprint + direction (if lying down) -- get straight up to standing position and sprint.
NEW ADDITION X (hold whilst lying down) -- stand up (skipping the crouched stage & without sprinting).

Whilst this approach is highly contextual, it is all bound to one key and is intuitive. Additionally, despite the contextual nature there are no conflicts, such as where the player intends to do one thing but cannot because the conditions/context will not allow it. All stances can be entered from any position on demand.
 It would be cool crawling through small maintenance tunnels or hitting the deck to avoid an incoming projectile.
The only real flaw here is the OnHold input, which by its nature features a delay, but it's a delay in milliseconds and doesn't leave that much of a negative impact considering the benefits.

If you're skeptical, read the thread in full and keep an open mind.

[665b092aa0a4bZylonBane]

Good grief, there's zero need for all that nonsense. IIRC there's exactly one area in the entire game where it was necessary to go prone. Maybe two. Changing these to just require crouching would be no loss. As for walking, the FPS world has moved on and standardized on walk/run toggles. Sprinting is what the turbo motion skates are for.

[665b092aa0ec5Join2]

IIRC there's exactly one area in the entire game where it was necessary to go prone.

That's beside the point. We want to empower the player, but do so in a intuitive way. It was never necessary to lean either, but the option is nice. Just because its use was limited doesn't mean it isn't meaningful. And how about designing the game to better accommodate it rather than stripping it out? e.g a rare specific enemy attack that is torso height and can be avoided by hitting the deck? It could play a role in surviving a Shodan trap, or a puzzle could make use of it. Besides, you underestimate the importance of it: even a tiny box can become cover with prone, or if there's a little gap low down somewhere, lying down can get you a better view to shoot through.

As for walking, the FPS world has moved on and standardized on walk/run toggles. Sprinting is what the turbo motion skates are for.

Both Underworld 1 & Shock 1 had both Toggle (switch mode) or Hold sprinting each, it was up to the player which to use. Same stuff is heavily present today in the hold form, only usually an animation prevents you from shooting whilst doing it, but an exception that immediately comes to mind is Dishonored.

[665b092aa106fNameless Voice]

That complex control system sounds awful.
For one thing, you wouldn't be able to use hold crouch because it would make you go prone instead?

[665b092aa1319Join2]

That complex control system sounds awful.

It's very intuitive and simple, actually.

For one thing, you wouldn't be able to use hold crouch because it would make you go prone instead?

Yes, but why was the option for hold crouch ever a good idea?

[665b092aa1685fox]

Yes, but why was the option for hold crouch ever a good idea?

Because crouching is usually only needed for very brief periods of time - same as running/walking. Personally I'd be fine with one key to simply switch between stand/crouch/prone in sequence (stand, crouch, prone, stand, crouch, prone, stand...) but agree that prone seems largely usesless in SS1. So if we'd lose prone entirely, crouching would be better done via "hold key". Not sure about losing it though. I guess I would prefer the game to offer more use for the prone position instead.

[665b092aa178fNameless Voice]

Why was the option to toggle crouch ever a good idea?

[665b092aa1921Join2]

The method I suggested is standard in modern design, and for good reason. You know I'm not one to usually praise modern design, but there are exceptions. I cannot stress enough how intuitive it and suitable it is. Maybe if it was this way in System Shock 1 you wouldn't perceive lying down as needless fluff, because it'd get used far more. It's all on one key, and all accessible on demand. Additionally, if desired you can still have separate dedicated prone/stand keys alongside this system, if we're taking the "make use of every key on the board" approach.

Why was the option to toggle crouch ever a good idea?

Holding crouch requires extra unneeded effort from the player and restricts the hand to that particular area of the keyboard in the process. I'm being hypocritical though as I prefer holding sprint as opposed to toggle in pretty much every game, even Doom. it is really just a matter of preference there I suppose.

[665b092aa1c6cfox]

Maybe if it was this way in System Shock 1 you wouldn't perceive lying down as needless fluff, because it'd get used far more.

But for what exactly? In a survival situation on a space station without undergrowth or sniping opportunities, players will always try to avoid this position because it comes with serious disadvantages. So unless the environment offers something to make it worthwile (cover or exploration), it's going to be pretty useless - except for a little plus in general options.

[665b092aa1f7aJoin2]

But for what exactly?

I gave numerous good examples. Even though SS1's level design isn't ripe with opportunity for prone usage, it'd still have its worth. And again, lean was pretty much useless if you just made use of strafing (especially in accordance with run mode). Although in dishonored, Thief and Deus Ex lean has greater gameplay purpose all for different reasons, but in shock 1 & 2? Nah, didn't really have much worth beyond simulated player empowerment if you figured out strafing works better.

[665b092aa209cfox]

Lean maybe useless depending on playstyle but it doesn't come with significant disadvantages like prone does, so I don't find them to be comparable.

You didn't give examples for how it would be useful in SS1 as it is. I agree that it could be redesigned to give it more meaning though, as stated before.

[665b092aa24b2Join2]

Lean maybe useless depending on playstyle but it doesn't come with significant disadvantages like prone does, so I don't find them to be comparable.

You didn't gave examples for how it would be useful in SS1 as it is. I agree that it could be redesigned to give it more meaning though, as stated before.

Prone is notably more useful than lean though.

-Hit the deck and avoid projectiles or other forms of threats. Notable in narrow corridors where strafing is not possible, or for projectiles with a wide width that cannot be strafed around. For lean, in theory you could lean out the way of an incoming projectile but strafing would do it better.
-Get a new line of sight advantage (such as looking under a low-standing table or pipe) not possible by any other means. For lean you can attain a new angle but again, strafing or crouching can put you in the same position for the most part.
-Low down objects become cover. Again, lean left/right does not grant any such thing and strafing or crouching provides about the same level of cover as lean (minus the legs).
-Enter crawl spaces.
-Lastly, simulated player empowerment providing a greater degree of human-like control. Lean does do this.

So what else does lean do beyond simulated player empowerment? As it stands in System Shock 1, really not that much. In Dishonored it gave you OP invisibility. In Deus Ex it was movement that didn't negate your standing accuracy bonus, but in shock 1 there was nothing aside from only exposing your upper body when peeking around corners, not your legs. Did that even effect enemy chance to hit you? I don't know but it depends on the enemy accuracy methods used. Regardless, even though it isn't that useful it's still nice to have, because it's empowering, enables you to mimic human movement closer, and rare opportunities can arise, such as leaning over an edge to see around a pillar (leaning over edges wasn't actually possible in Shock 1 iirc, but never mind). I'll knock up a quick image to demonstrate how this would be an empowering ability unique to lean if desired, because putting it into words is not easy. 

[665b092aa25edfox]

Since you are now talking about the legitimacy of lean instead of prone: I almost always prefered strafing so far myself, so agreed. And it's fine to have the options but the question is wether or not the necessary two key bindings around WASD (or whatever it is in other countries) shouldn't be used for something more essential.

Oh look... a new subforum.

[665b092aa2731Join2]

Lean should stay, and so should prone. Lean too could have design that enhances its worth. I love its unique benefit in Deus Ex that I mentioned. The Dishonored benefit is too overpowering though.

Edit: not sure why this was split off from the NightDive feedback thread. The general theme of the thread was fans posting what they expect from NightDive. It did become a discussion of its own and a diversion into its own topic was for the best I guess. OK, but a title edit was in order, so that is now done.

[665b092aa2a47fox]

Oh look... a new thread. We're going places today.

Lean should stay, and so should prone. Lean too could have design that enhances its worth. I love its unique benefit in Deus Ex that I mentioned. The Dishonored benefit is too overpowering though.

I think you are right, for a SS1-remake this should be kept. And for new entries it would be more then desirable to get the environments designed to make it more useful player options then they were previously.

I can see how easy it is to question little details and end up "streamlining" a game to death without any ill-minded intentions (like "making it more accesible for the kids" etc.).

[665b092aa2babJoin2]

Anyhow, returning to that contextual system: forget how it looks on paper and play a game that features it (such as Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare on PC). It being merged with the crouch key is less keys to memorize and take up space in the important WASD area of the board, and it feels very intuitive in play. The only conflict is with the crouch hold option (forgot about that, but the value of this functionality should be challenged). If you want dedicated prone/stand keys or a separate crouch hold key in addition to the contextual system, then that too can be done (can simply have it unbound in the keybindings list by default which a player can choose to bind in place of toggle).

[665b092aa2cb1fox]

It's certainly better then having a dedicated key for each position.

[665b092aa2db3Join2]

For the most part, yes. Dedicated commands are nice but you get that here with the contextual system anyway, just with a slight on hold delay for two-stage transitions.

[665b092aa3199ZylonBane]

Why was the option to toggle crouch ever a good idea?

Err, Thief? You crouch-walk a lot in Thief. Crouch-walking will probably not be a common thing in SS1 remake though.

It's very intuitive and simple, actually.

It's awful, actually.

Prone in SS1 should be, at best, like block or lean-forward in Thief. Present, but nearly useless, and without interfering in any way with the main control scheme. Or just leave it out entirely. As already explained, there's no intrinsic need for it.

[665b092aa337aHikari]

Agreeing with Zylon here. Having three levels of lean and crouch are.... well. Not particularly needed. It wasn't needed in Shock2 either (I never did, but I've seen a lot of LP's where people use the lean for corner sniping cameras and the like, which makes it at least useful to enough people to warrent including A lean/crouch.

Choice is good. Trying to replicate shock's controls perfectly defeats the point of a remake because consistently the biggest flaw System Shock had were the controls.

[665b092aa3624ZylonBane]

Having three levels of lean and crouch are.... well. Not particularly needed. It wasn't needed in Shock2 either

SS2 didn't have three levels of lean and crouch. It had one of each.

[665b092aa3840Join2]

"It's awful, actually."

ZylonBane: its likely once again you have no idea what you are talking about and are judging by how it looks on paper combined with your poor ability to perceive the value in certain concepts. Another example of your lack of perception is that you see no value in prone itself.

Objectively, the only downsides of this system over dedicated keys are:

1. On Hold delay of a few milliseconds. Not particularly significant.
2. Conflict with the Crouch hold option. Although a separate optional (unbound by default) keybinding can be offered to the player to resolve this. Pretty sure Shock 2 has two separate bindings for hold crouch/toggle crouch actually, with crouch toggle being the default. I know Deus Ex has it. Therefore, this "downside" isn't exactly valid.

Now the benefits are important:

All intuitively merged with the crouch key which means:

   1. less keys to memorize.
   2. prone and stand is consolidated with the important movement keys in the immediate WASD area.
   3. Less control information to overwhelm the player with.
   
As a result of all the above it means it will see far more natural use.
   

[665b092aa3a0cJML]

I like the idea. Gameplay wise it would be nice to find some items under the furniture, or hide there, find secret passages...
Also it definitely is intuitive. I never really liked crouch-hold.

[665b092aa3b5eLearonys]

Sorry, but leaning, useless in System Shock? have you ever fired a single hit-scan weapon in system shock 1? You can hover over holes, look at the other side of walls with leaning as if you're a squid with a gun-mounted camera on each arm. Remember that NPCs have aimbots that will only target a player's torso (or anything else in the "middle" of the body).

Also, don't forget, hitting the side of an arm by just a pixel is good enough to deal full damage.
Sorry for my intrusiveness, but leaning was definitely not useless. And don't talk System Shock 2 because we're talking about System Shock 1's remaster here.