SSR Changes and Stretch goals

[665b0355e94f1ThiefsieFool]

As for your upgrade concept, that sounds functional but your implementation seems generic and almost superfluous, but I'm glad you're at least open to some kind of progression.

Personally, I prefer my RPG progression to be full of hard choices and strategy. I want to be able to fail or to be very challenged by making poor choices. Also, I want to feel empowered by smart choices.

I think it's relatively trivial to make RPG progression plausible, and I would probably do it through software/hardware upgrades much like you, but in a more elaborate and evolved way. Think Deus Ex - with exclusive and significant choices - only more of them.

I don't see why exclusive choices are better than freedom combined with a limited amount of points, the latter offers better build diversity, in Deus Ex the exclusive choices are often between a good and a mediocre augmentation, you might have chosen the mediocre augmentation (much later) if it didn't mean giving up the good one, but you never will given that it's an exclusive choice.

Not to mention that nothing is supposed to be exclusive about hardware in SS1, everything is plug'n'play detachable and modular, not a nano-aug that is injected into the bloodstream and then can't be removed later.

What I'm talking about gives you maximum freedom with minimum intrusiveness and retconning.

[665b0355e9a75DKDArtagnan]

I don't see why exclusive choices are better than freedom combined with a limited amount of points, the latter offers better build diversity, in Deus Ex the exclusive choices are often between a good and a mediocre augmentation, you might have chosen the mediocre augmentation (much later) if it didn't mean giving up the good one, but you never will given that it's an exclusive choice.

Not to mention that nothing is supposed to be exclusive about hardware in SS1, everything is plug'n'play detachable and modular, not a nano-aug that is injected into the bloodstream and then can't be removed later.

What I'm talking about gives you maximum freedom with minimum intrusiveness and retconning.

I didn't say they should make you pick between something great and something mediocre. I think exclusive choices are more interesting - and they add to replayability.

That said, I'm the kind of person who likes the idea that a potential replay might mean a more efficient character. That sort of thing inspires me to play more of a great game.

That said, I don't want all choices to be binary 1:1 stuff. I want choices to support a variety of playstyles - and I want to discover what playstyle works well with what choices. I enjoy the strategy of such things - and I don't mind not doing everything perfectly the first time.

I grew up with games like that - and I'm not a fan of hand-holding or trivial choices in general. They might as well not be there, if they don't have an impact - or if you can't make a bad choice.

Also, I don't think they have to stick 100% to System Shock with a modular system. They could easily invent a reason whatever progression symbol or choice couldn't be reversed. That sort of thing is trivial - and the Augmentation system in Deus Ex could be easily adapted to SS.

Not that I care all that much. I just don't want something blatantly out of place.

But I'm used to playing games full of "gaming clichés" - so I don't fret about them too much.

I'm sure we all know how easy it is to pick apart silly things in games - including both the System Shocks.

[665b0355e9c65ThiefsieFool]

Nobody wants to make mistakes, the Deus Ex and System Shock 2 teams certainly didn't, that doesn't mean you can't have a robust system that is more resistant to developer-authored mistakes.

For the record I wouldn't insist that these upgrades are all linear i.e you don't find V3 of a hardware because you get upgrade points to raise it from V1 to V3 instead, rather using upgrades on hardware could trigger deeper modifications or even some choices, it would probably be okay to permanently modify some hardware in a fashion if you can find that hardware multiple times.

Also, I don't think they have to stick 100% to System Shock with a modular system. They could easily invent a reason whatever progression symbol or choice couldn't be reversed. That sort of thing is trivial - and the Augmentation system in Deus Ex could be easily adapted to SS.

They could (they can do anything), the question is whether they should.

[665b0355ea15fDKDArtagnan]

Nobody wants to make mistakes, the Deus Ex and System Shock 2 teams certainly didn't, that doesn't mean you can't have a robust system that is more resistant to developer-authored mistakes.

It depends on what you see as a mistake. As long as there's a good amount of choices - I don't have a problem with the occasional slip-up where one choice is "numerically" superior. Sometimes, it's not that clear-cut though. For instance, is it better to be able to jump higher or to lift heavy objects? That's something you can't answer before you've played it all the way through at least once. Also, things can be adjusted in patches - or through modding.

Both those options have the potential to open up interesting gameplay - so I'd probably welcome them.

But I don't think anyone would disagree that fewer mistakes is better. I just think it's a mistake to lock yourself down as a designer - and focus on making every single choice equally viable. That will only enforce a lack of variety and make choices trivial and without impact. It's surprisingly hard to come up with several 100% equal and interesting choices.

For the record I wouldn't insist that these upgrades are all linear i.e you don't find V3 of a hardware because you get upgrade points to raise it from V1 to V3 instead, rather using upgrades on hardware could trigger deeper modifications or even some choices, it would probably be okay to permanently modify some hardware in a fashion if you can find that hardware multiple times.

I'm going to assume that means we don't necessarily disagree after all.

They could (they can do anything), the question is whether they should.

I can't answer that for you. All I can say is that I wouldn't mind - though I obviously prefer to have it make as much sense as possible.

[665b0355ea639voodoo47]

Classic mode is a great idea - but it does mean having two separate versions of the game in terms of balance - which can be quite tricky.

if I can do this with SS2 (maintaining 2.5 versions) and Thief (maintaining 2 versions), then they should be able to do it with SSr. yes yes, there is that "no life" and "pretty much insane" part, but still, I'm just one, and compared to that, they are.. Many.

[665b0355ea7ffAurora]

Man can dream... but The Many can accomplish.