A few questions from a SS2 first timer.

[665b10c793b50GuyFawkesGaming]

I hope I'm not placing this thread in the wrong place. I chose to put it in General, despite being a questions thread, because I felt these weren't real issues (crashing, hanging, missing textures, ect.) but if you feel it needs to be moved I apologies ahead of time. Before I start asking questions I'd like to say the following.

The majority of the interactions I had with this community has dealt with System Shock 1 up until this point. I've avoided the second game for a long time due to it not being available on Mac or Linux natively and because I'm admittedly biased toward WINE and anything that uses it due to poor experiences in the past with it. After feeling a craving for BioShock style gameplay, a game I played on PS3, I finally decided to bite the bullet. I'm pleasantly surprised that, despite using WINE, the performance and stability of the game is excellent. I have to congratulate Night Dive on this as I was expecting a half baked wrapper like most companies do. I'm glad I bought this game.

The first thing I would like to ask is if SS2Tool is necessary on the digital versions? From my understanding, both Steam and GOG versions include a slimmed out version of SS2Tool's components (newdark and all) just without the mod manager or editor.

The second thing I would like to know is if there is a up to date list of all the graphical mods for the game. A self contained compilation pack would be better but I wont keep my hopes up. I noticed TucoPacifico1980 video tutorial thread and Marvin comment about ND-SHTUP superseding Vert's space textures. I would like to know if there are any other textures that are obsoleted.

P.S. I've already tried a few visual mods out and have to say great work to the community member who made them! I've NEVER seen a late 90s game look this good or age this well.

[665b10c7940abZylonBane]

I have to congratulate Night Dive on this

Aaaand here we go.

[665b10c7944c8sarge945]

Night Dive has nothing to do with the current modernised version of System Shock 2. They are only doing the remake.

The modernising has been done entirely by the community, to whom we owe everything we have including our lives.

[665b10c7946c1voodoo47]

to make it short, you don't need the tool if you don't care about mods. if you do, go here.

NDS resolved the legal part of the SS2 puzzle (or rather, a gordian knot, and yes, that is something to congratulate for), the technical side is all community stuff.

[665b10c794a32Marvin]

Newbie friendly graphic mods are all in the guide that voodoo linked and all of them are completely compatible with each other, although some replace the same assets in a few places. Mod priority determines which one gets loaded. . Further ones are mentioned in the video you are referring to, but they are not really necessary for first time players.
Compilation packages are not distributed here due to the need for constant updates, newbies and veterans alike are encouraged to use individual archives. You can  just download them all and install them with a single click in the mod manager.

[665b10c7954c4GuyFawkesGaming]

Aaaand here we go.

Night Dive has nothing to do with the current modernised version of System Shock 2. They are only doing the remake.

The modernising has been done entirely by the community, to whom we owe everything we owe including our lives.

Ok, sorry if you got offended. I was under the impression Night Dive helped, or at least created the WINE wrapper (I knew newdark was all community). I suppose that generates another question: what exactly is the relationship between this community and Night Dive? I notice Enhanced Edition used a proprietary version of SHLINK. I also notice Malba Tahan hasn't been on since Night Dive bought the rights. Did they hire some community member, what's the story there?

to make it short, you don't need the tool if you don't care about mods. if you do, go here.

NDS resolved the legal part of the SS2 puzzle (or rather, a gordian knot, and yes, that is something to congratulate for), the technical side is all community stuff.

I actually tried some graphics mods without SS2Tool and they seamed to work, though given you're a dev for the project I'll take your advice. I suppose this changes the question slightly; what exactly is the difference between SS2 after being patched by the tool vs a vanilla one from a digital source.

Newbie friendly graphic mods are all in the guide that voodoo linked and all of them are completely compatible with each other, although some replace the same assets in a few places. Mod priority determines which one gets loaded. . Further ones are mentioned in the video you are referring to, but they are not really necessary for first time players.
Compilation packages are not distributed here due to the need for constant updates, newbies and veterans alike are encouraged to use individual archives. You can  just download them all and install them with a single click in the mod manager.

I was kind of hoping someone could give me a further rundown of the mods, particularly the smaller ones, to fill in the nooks and crannies; i.e. the recent worn pile and beaker one. I suppose if updates are constant I might be futile though.

[665b10c795706voodoo47]

- yes, mac/wine stuff is done by NDS.
- we help out with fixing up both Shock games, NDS and GOG don't seem to mind and deploy the updates/patches some time after we make them available.
- yes, Malba Tahan made SHLink, both the public version and the EE version. seems like he moved on afterwards.
- I've made sure that things would not break horribly even if you try to load mods manually or semi-manually. however, you will need the tool if you want things to work properly.
- vanilla (GOG/steam vanilla would be more proper) has a basic set of fixes that get rid of the most critical bugs. the tool has a similar set, but fixes the less important stuff as well.
- the mod setup from the guide should do fine for most people. of you want more, either read the descriptions or ask here.
- mods do get updated, but not constantly, and even if, almost all can be updated mid game, so unless you manually create some horrible modpack abomination, you shouldn't have any problems.

[665b10c795847GuyFawkesGaming]

You're probably not the person I should ask this but why doesn't GOG include the SS2Tool preinstalled?
Anyways are any of the other major visual mods rendered obsolete, besides Vert's space. I notice SHTUP seams to include biomatter now. Are any of Vert's content relevant now?

[665b10c795a01icemann]

You'd have to ask GOG that.

[665b10c795b9avoodoo47]

because there is no point - the tool is meant to chew through any kind of (possibly botched) install and spew out an uniform, working build, with all the 3rdparty assets required for loading mods and fan missions. its purpose is to make troubleshooting easy (we know exactly what version etc you have once you patch up), provide a solid platform for mods and fan missions (it's way easier to construct new assets if you know everyone will be using them the same way), and allow to load everything in a standardized, user friendly way.

"obsolete" is not the proper wording in this case, "alternate" is what you are looking for - you still might want the extra blobby vurt's goo even though SHTUP is much closer to the original aesthetics.

[665b10c796005JDoran]

Welcome to the forum, mate!

BTW, if you want to play more games like System Shock and System Shock 2, then sadly you'll be disappointed, as there aren't many (or even a few) games like them. Prey (2017) is the closest that I know of to System Shock 2, it is mostly very good. The much older games Deus Ex (2001), and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines (2004) are less similar but are really good. With Deus Ex I'd recommend playing through it for your first time vanilla (i.e. with no mods), then replaying it (and you will want to replay it!) with GMDX (http://gmdxmod.com/), a very comprehensive mod made by one of this forum's members. And with Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, you should really use the unofficial fan-community patch (http://www.moddb.com/mods/vtmb-unofficial-patch).

And one of our members is creating a modern remake of System Shock 1, called Citadel (http://www.moddb.com/games/citadel) and it should be released later this year.

And if you like Bioshock, then you should try Bioshock 2, and Bioshock: Infinite. Bioshock 2 is mostly much better than the first, especially gameplay-wise, though it's story and characters aren't nearly as memorable as Bioshock 1's are. Bioshock: Infinite is a step backwards in some ways, and gameplay-wise is the simplest of the three, but it's fun and very atmospheric, and you'll find out if you're in the fifty percent of players who think the ending is really good and clever, or if you're in the other half (which I am), who think that the ending is pretentious, hugely-flawed, unsatisfactory drivel.

Oh, and the DLC/expansion pack for Bioshock 2, Minverva's Den, is really good too.

[665b10c796201icemann]

Dishonored is kinda. Though it's more Thief-y than System Shock-y.

System Shock-like games are rare.

[665b10c7966ebZylonBane]

And if you like Bioshock, then you should try Bioshock 2

[665b10c796a9eJDoran]

No, it's not as "Duh! Obviously" as it might sound. I've met (online) a few people over the years who've played and loved Bioshock but hadn't tried it's sequel, mainly because B2 has a terrible reputation in some corners of the 'net. A reputation that, as far as I can tell, is often caused by people adversely judging B2 not by it's own merit, but purely on the fact that, to those people, Bioshock 2 should never have been made because, and I quote (well, paraphrase) "Bioshock didn't need a sequel, as it told it's story fully". Which to me is totally ridiculous, as (a) by that logic we only needed one Star Wars film, One James Bond Novel, one Harry Potter book, etc, and (b) Rapture was a city, it must have had tens of thousands of potentially great stories that could have been written about it,  and (c) Bioshock 2 is a *game* so even if a story continuation made no sense, it could still be enjoyed purely as a game (though as it turned out it did have a story, which made the game more enjoyable).

So it's quite possible that GuyFawkesGaming has never played B2, especially if all (s)he'd heard was that it was an unneeded cash-in that did nothing new or good and would only sour the memory of the 'perfect' Bioshock 1.

[665b10c796bd7ZylonBane]

I don't know why you're even mentioning Bioshock anyway, because it's not an immersive sim/RPG like Shock, Deus Ex, etc.

[665b10c796fc5JDoran]

I don't know why you're even mentioning Bioshock anyway, because it's not an immersive sim/RPG like Shock, Deus Ex, etc.

Sadly, that's very true, though Bioshock's excellent atmosphere, setting, and lore could have made for a first rate immersive sim, with RPG elements, optional side missions (including saving sane, non-splicer NPCs and maybe even helping them to escape to the surface with you, etc) and so on. But not only did they leave behind System Shock 2's depth and complexity when they made Bioshock, they also left out the SDK, so modding wasn't possible. If they had made it moddable, then it's possible that a team of talented modders could added proper RPG aspects and side missions (and changed the generic (and utterly unsuited to the game) end boss battle into something more fitting. Maybe even the modders would have expanded on the game's levels, giving us new areas of Rapture to explore.

But GuyFawkesGaming mentioned playing Bioshock, so I thought that he might like the sequel, even though it's not remotely like SS2 and it's few fellow games.

[665b10c79821cGuyFawkesGaming]

because there is no point - the tool is meant to chew through any kind of (possibly botched) install and spew out an uniform, working build, with all the 3rdparty assets required for loading mods and fan missions. its purpose is to make troubleshooting easy (we know exactly what version etc you have once you patch up), provide a solid platform for mods and fan missions (it's way easier to construct new assets if you know everyone will be using them the same way), and allow to load everything in a standardized, user friendly way.

You kind of contradict yourself there; you first say there's no point then say it's for mods and I'm pretty sure every System Shock 2 user, digital or retail, will want to install and use mods eventually.

You'd have to ask GOG that.

Sadly GOG can be quite an unresponsive pain in the @$$ at times so I guess the question's was bit rhetorical, hence why I said probably not the person I should be asking.

Welcome to the forum, mate!

Actually I've been here for a while now, but thanks!

BTW, if you want to play more games like System Shock and System Shock 2, then sadly you'll be disappointed, as there aren't many (or even a few) games like them. Prey (2017) is the closest that I know of to System Shock 2, it is mostly very good. The much older games Deus Ex (2001), and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines (2004) are less similar but are really good. With Deus Ex I'd recommend playing through it for your first time vanilla (i.e. with no mods), then replaying it (and you will want to replay it!) with GMDX (http://gmdxmod.com/), a very comprehensive mod made by one of this forum's members. And with Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, you should really use the unofficial fan-community patch (http://www.moddb.com/mods/vtmb-unofficial-patch).

And one of our members is creating a modern remake of System Shock 1, called Citadel (http://www.moddb.com/games/citadel) and it should be released later this year.

And if you like Bioshock, then you should try Bioshock 2, and Bioshock: Infinite. Bioshock 2 is mostly much better than the first, especially gameplay-wise, though it's story and characters aren't nearly as memorable as Bioshock 1's are. Bioshock: Infinite is a step backwards in some ways, and gameplay-wise is the simplest of the three, but it's fun and very atmospheric, and you'll find out if you're in the fifty percent of players who think the ending is really good and clever, or if you're in the other half (which I am), who think that the ending is pretentious, hugely-flawed, unsatisfactory drivel.

Oh, and the DLC/expansion pack for Bioshock 2, Minverva's Den, is really good too.

I've played all those except for Prey and Vampire. I've played some Deus EX, but never finish the game. I should probably try to find a way to get that one too.

I don't know why you're even mentioning Bioshock anyway, because it's not an immersive sim/RPG like Shock, Deus Ex, etc.

Actually BioShock's not bad at all. Sure it lacks an inventory but sometimes I feel that having to manage an inventory can be annoying and takes away from time that could be spent actually playing. And sure it sort of lacks the class based characteristics in that you can reconfigure your character at a gene bank and effectively change your class and combat style but I feel this was done to remove the unforgiving permanent choice attribute that plagues many RPGs (including System Shock 2). Besides, most people I know who played BioShock, myself included, simply tryout a bunch of different Plasmid/Tonic combinations until we find one we like and never change it again due to the inconvenience of having to find a Gene Bank (I feel this inconvenience was intentional though for exactly this reason; forced dynamic role playing). I also think it's somewhat debatable as to whether It was "easier than System Shock 2"; I played it on console, Survival difficulty, Vita Chambers off, aim assist off. The combination of the controller + no aim assist is it's self an achievement.

[665b10c79894dvoodoo47]

You kind of contradict yourself

nope. the GOG/steam updates are meant to fix up the vanilla game. the tool is mostly about making it mod ready, and you would be surprised just how many people don't care about those.

[665b10c798b95Join2]

Bioshock is awful. Would you kindly stop that.

[665b10c798ce2Marvin]

Compared to System Shock, maybe. There's much, MUCH worse stuff out there.

[665b10c798e74icemann]

I'd never call Bioshock awful. It's just an inferior spiritual successor.

Taking out System Shock from it all, I quite liked the first 2. The third though, takes away whatever "Shock" was left in there and turns it into a generic FPS. The first 2 though were fine and enjoyable games.

I can't think of a movie equivalent, otherwise I'd use it as an example. For spiritual successors that seems to be a video games only type thing.

Forum, feel free to give me an example of a spiritual successor that did not do the original justice, but was a good game when just taken on it's own merit. I can't think of anything (besides bad sequels), as it's a very niche area for a game to be.

[665b10c79964fGuyFawkesGaming]

Compared to System Shock, maybe. There's much, MUCH worse stuff out there.

Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing, Bubsy 3D, Destiny (I played this one, nothing but paywalls and redundant, grindy gameplay). The list keeps going.

I'd never call Bioshock awful. It's just an inferior spiritual successor.

Taking out System Shock from it all, I quite liked the first 2. The third though, takes away whatever "Shock" was left in there and turns it into a generic FPS. The first 2 though were fine and enjoyable games.

I can't think of a movie equivalent, otherwise I'd use it as an example. For spiritual successors that seems to be a video games only type thing.

Forum, feel free to give me an example of a spiritual successor that did not do the original justice, but was a good game when just taken on it's own merit. I can't think of anything (besides bad sequels), as it's a very niche area for a game to be.

I agree with you completely. I feel as though BioShock was more targeted at consoles, considering the simplified gameplay and various glitches and technical/compatibility issues the PC version had. I played it on console though still feel it sucks that the PC version wasn't all it was cracked up to be, especially considering it would have performed better on PC.

BioShock Infinite solved the crap story telling of the second game and poor progression of plasmids, but unfortunately did have typical FPS gameplay.

[665b10c7997b9voodoo47]

did not care much about Infinite, but yeah, the first two were allright, enough for me to complete them two times. some bugs were annoying, and the forced absence of proper inventory was a pain, but overall, both were ok. not brilliant, but definitely not awful.

[665b10c799cacRoSoDude]

Sometimes I think that maybe if EA had actually tried to promote System Shock 2 at all, Irrational/2K wouldn't have been so eager to dumb its spiritual successor down to the point that it was a hollow husk of its predecessor devoid of challenge and requiring no mental engagement. It seems a lot of their initial motivation was to make a version of SS2 that would actually sell, and they veered so hard in that direction due to how poorly SS2 did.

But then, the buck really does have to stop with the developer IMO. If you promote your game as "redefining what it means to be a first person shooter" and you deliver a product which is ultimately shallower than the seminal games that spawned and established the genre (e.g. Doom, Duke, Quake, Half-Life) and features heavily degraded design compared to its source material, I'm not about to play apologetics for you just because a previous publisher screwed you over. Bioshock sucks, and I knew it before I had ever heard the name "System Shock". The deafening praise it received on release baffles me to this day, and I'm still pissed that I had friends who insisted that I would love it. Standards, people.

The only video I've seen that's even close to my opinion on Bioshock is this one. He gives SS1 short shrift, but is otherwise on point for a 2011 clip art opinion video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq8MaxPSt9w