SSR RPG Mechanics Discussion.

[665b2cee9cbaaHikari]

Love it or hate it, apparently it's a reward tier. Discuss? I'll chime in when I'm not busy in meatspace.

Why or why not?

What would you like to see?

[665b2cee9cd65chickenhead]

At the risk of sounding redundant, it should be an optional mode.  I personally would be okay with having another Ken Levine Shock game, but we have a lot of.... I'll call them purists to be polite.  Based on what they're saying, and they have reasonable points, too, I'll add, A lot of core mechanics will have to be altered in order to add Role-playing elements.

[665b2cee9cf17Schuler]

To keep things brief, I understand why RPG elements are attractive since SS2 used them so well, but they aren't why I love SS1 and I think they'd get in the way of me enjoying them. Weapon skill improving through usage, so you have a sense of progression while being free to use as many of them as you want without locking out others could be unobtrusive and add immersion since, well, a hacker being able to use a railgun, plasma rifle, and frag grenades is a bit odd.

[665b2cee9d5bfHikari]

Finding gear that lets you upgrade weapons, or update implants? That I can see given it shows as you progress you become more familiar with your implants and exploiting skillsofts to make modifications and improvements to your guns and possibly armor.

I do not want character leveling. Unlike in Doom 2016 there is no praetor suit to act as excuse, thoug hI suppose one could argue the implants act in much the same way and harvesting corpses or activating triggers that tell the implants to unlock added functions could work.

However I view characterr upgradeability vs arsenel upgradeability as bad. It isn't 'we didn't need it before these damned millinials are needing handholds.' It's I don't see a good feeling in universe way to justify it.

Exploiting different areas of the station, like medical, or Engineering or a machine shop on the flight deck I could see though.

If nothing else finding a use for all the torsos, limbs, wadded up bits of paper, soda cans, and all would be good to have even if it's 'feed all this junk into the hopper' 'get a couple med/detox patches.

[665b2cee9d7b4icemann]

I'll use a different game as an example.

If, let's say tomorrow Capcom came out and said they were doing a reboot of Space Invaders, but now you use money earned to upgrade your ship + level up via XP. Would you be happy about that?

The game looks the same, but the core mechanic is changed.

It's sort of that way for me with this. I have no issue whatsoever with them remaking/rebooting/whatever the first System Shock. Changes to the core experience I'm not happy about.

If SS1 had always been a RPG then I'd not have a complaint to make on that aspect. But it wasn't, so there's my issue, as I've stated elsewhere. If that makes me a purist (which I'm fine to labelled as) then so be it.

[665b2cee9dabdThiefsieFool]

Should be optional, yeah. The difficulty screen already lets you customize the game a lot, one more thing wouldn't hurt.

[665b2cee9dbc6XKILLJOY98]

It sounds to me like they are thinking about adding ss2's mechanics into ss1, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, though I think it would make a lot of people happier if they were optional.

[665b2cee9dd17DKDArtagnan]

The problem with making these mechanics optional is the balance issue.

If they implement RPG elements, optional or not, they have to balance the game around them. If they make them optional, then they have to create a separate balance paradigm which isn't affected by character skills or stats. Essentially, that's two entire balance passes and potentially twice the Q/A work.

Doing one of these things is a lot easier than doing both.

Personally, I guess I prefer they just go with the vision they have for the game. If they're going to add RPG mechanics "just because" - then I'd rather they didn't include them.

But if they're going to do it right, then I'm absolutely convinced the game will be SIGNIFICANTLY better for it.

[665b2cee9deb5Hikari]

Through all this I remember Kick and co aren't just blindly grubbing for dollars or are going 'FINE we'll make a better studio and it'll have blackjack and hookers!' From everything I've seen they are passionate about bringing the old gems back.

There are missteps, but it isn't for lack of trying. From what I saw during the strife re-release they weren't able to do all the things they wanted because lack of funds.

If ReShock goes over well who knows, we might get a GOOD HD remake of the original turok, or powerslave, or any of the other games they've got that need more love in addition to shock 3.

[665b2cee9e04eThiefsieFool]

RPG Elements: We're aware of the discussions going on and while there is still plenty of design work to do, we have the best intentions in mind of making a game that will both challenge the player, while still staying true to what people loved about System Shock.

[665b2cee9e1a3Nameless Voice]

What does that even mean?

[665b2cee9e453DKDArtagnan]

What does that even mean?

To me, it's obviously their intention to stay true to System Shock whilst also providing a challenge. Meaning the RPG mechanics aren't meant to change the challenging nature of the game - and they're not meant to break the spirit of the game.

[665b2cee9e598ZylonBane]

What does that even mean?

[665b2cee9e7e5DKDArtagnan]

What does that even mean?

It means if there's a problem, it's you.

[665b2cee9e8dbicemann]

The thing is that by even having them in there, that changes the core mechanics of the game.

[665b2cee9eb28DKDArtagnan]

The thing is that by even having them in there, that changes the core mechanics of the game.

So, changing mechanics will change mechanics?

I bet they didn't consider that when talking about their intentions to stay true to the spirit of the game

I'm pretty sure they don't intend to recreate the game 1:1 in terms of game mechanics, even if they don't add RPG progression features.

[665b2cee9ec09icemann]

Having played the demo that is immediately apparent.

[665b2cee9ee33DKDArtagnan]

Having played the demo that is immediately apparent.

Yes, that's one of the reasons I backed it.

I already own a 1:1 creation of the game.

[665b2cee9f025Join2]

Considering that there already is (very minor) progression systems in the original it doesn't have to be that big a change. But from the description it seems that they want to go all-in, vending machines and all. If the execution is good I'd like it. It's not like the game was great in-part because it didn't have notable RPG progression systems. Doom 1 for example would arguably be affected negatively by the inclusion of them because the combat is so tight and the pace of the game would be slowed. Personally when I played the original System Shock I found it a little disappointing that was next to none, other LG games showed that they are a perfect fit. 

All that matters to me in the end is execution. If it makes the game "better", I'm all for it. If the execution is good I think it will do just that.

[665b2cee9f3ccDKDArtagnan]

Considering that there already is (very minor) progression systems in the original it doesn't have to be that big a change. But from the description it seems that they want to go all-in, vending machines and all. If the execution is good I'd like it. It's not like the game was great in-part because it didn't have notable RPG progression systems. Doom 1 for example would arguably be affected negatively by the inclusion of them because the combat is so tight and the pace of the game would be slowed. Personally when I played the original System Shock I found it a little disappointing that was next to none, other LG games showed that they are a perfect fit. 

All that matters to me in the end is execution. If it makes the game "better", I'm all for it. If the execution is good I think it will do just that.

I'd agree with that, more or less.

Vending machines, for instance, should definitely be given more thought than simply adding them at random to levels.

They would need to construct a meaningful economy - and they should add something to the narrative to support their existence. Certainly when it comes to buying weapons or ammo. That would seem to be out of place for System Shock - unless they make some clever adjustments to the purpose of the station.

[665b2cee9f573Join2]

From a gameplay standpoint I'd love vending machines (replicators). If Shock 2 is considered canon then the narrative reasons are covered/can be copied over in some form. I don't think you should be able to buy weapons because the weapon placement in the original was pretty solid, but reduce the amount of ammo given from the environment a touch then that covers the purchasing of ammo. Some weapon upgrades should be able to be bought, others placed in the environment to better reward exploration. Nanites should be extremely scarce and finite so you can't just buy 1000 batteries and medpatches, though inventory carry limitations also help in that regard. I'm talking extremely scarce nanite amounts. Never should you feel you have enough to buy even half of what you want, even if all you want is a couple of medpatches and batteries. 

It will change the identity of the game rather notably, yet making it more like Shock 2 is a big plus to me. But I'm one of those people that prefer Shock 2 to Shock 1 by quite a large margin, though they're both still excellent.

[665b2cee9f661Nameless Voice]

They can't use nanites for currency.

System Shock is set 2072.  Nanites were only adopted as currency in 2082 (according to SS2.)

[665b2cee9f7e5ThiefsieFool]

Indeed, in fact there's practically no mention of nanotech at all in the original System Shock
This currency issue is why I pictured the two unused vending machines cut from ss1 working more like item transmuters, one could transmute ammo into other types of ammo (always inefficiently, of course), while the other would do the same with patches. No currency needed.
Additional notes: they would also be rare so that you have to remember or mark their locations, and backtracking to one of them could be quite dangerous, also higher difficulty would make the transmutations more inefficient, to the point that you really need to use the vendors properly
 

[665b2cee9f8f2Join2]

Well they're retconning SS1's events, so maybe they're fine with retconning SS2.

I'm conflicted though. The purist in me says just keep it simple with some weapon mod system and an expanded hardware upgrade system, and that's all. The progressive says give me everything but the kitchen sink SS2 style, I want it all.